Russia versus Ukraine

What I struggle to understand is why Hamas is launching relatively ineffectual missiles at Israel, when they know they have limited effect, but that they also know that it will bring missiles back in the opposite direction, killing their own population.

It seems that they either have less thought for their own population than Israel (who at least give warnings before launching the missiles) does, or they are sacrificing their own people for the support/publicity they get in places like forums.

For example, when Israel killed the kids on the beach, maybe Hamas thought that they were worth sacrificing for the huge amount of anti Israeli sentiment the deaths attracted.

 

it was an inflammatory unfunny racist joke I think

 

have you just learned the term straw man? you seem awfully keen on using it!

i was just trying to asertain the relevance of your comment, and it seems there wasn't any

 

The shelling of a UN school in Palestine. Wonder who is going to blame Hamas for that?

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/displaced-palestinians-gathered.html

 

It's common knowledge is it not? You misrepresented my comment as an argument in which tried to reduce to the absurd.

Why not just ask the relevance of it if you don't understand instead of trying to portray it to suit your own agenda? All you have to do is ask.

 

1) i didn't misrepresent your comment. i was just trying (successfully) to figure out the relevance in a light hearted manner.
2) agenda? what agenda?

 

So you didn't think it had any link to what you said, you were just joking about death. I understand now.

 

i didn't think it had any link to what i said? what does that even mean?

 

Pot, kettle, black

 

This is off topic now, no point trying to explain it to you.

The news about the missing plane from Burkina Faso is worrying. The odds of aircraft crashing are minimal anyway, let alone 3 in quick succession.

 

i am still curious though as to what you think my agenda is? is this the same as the gay agenda is hear about on the news? i've never really understood that

 

Perhaps agenda is the wrong word, maybe opinion is better. But it seems like i'm wrong, you have no agenda at all, it was a light hearted elucidation of my comment's lack of relevance of course. I've not heard of the gay agenda but it seems to be referenced by extreme conservative christians to suggest that it is of little worth that homosexuality is normalised within culture. Some extremist conservative Christians also think the gay agenda is to recruit heterosexual people in becoming gay. Sounds like bigotry to me so you're probably right in not understanding it.

 

To answer the question as best as I can, without taking one side or another, Hamas believe they are living through virtual annihilation by blockade and subjugation. It does seem as if the strikes are to test Israeli resolve in the face of both bombardment by their missiles and then international condemnation. They must be aware that civilians may die and must believe that they may die anyway and so winning the conflict is the only long term option.

We tend to see it as missiles fall and Israel reacts, but actually assassinations and provocations are rife before the event. It is a blood feud, a cycle of violence.

I abhor anti-semitism and can't abide fundamentalism of any sort. I see two peoples both with a pressing need for statedom. I genuinely think the only prospect for peace is a union of two states as a federated multi-cultural entity living together. Hard to imagine, but South Africa made it's own transition.

 

Can we focus on the bigger picture here?

Disturbing reports coming out of France this evening suggest that some shop windows have been smashed!!

 

This. The major difference is that we have no intention of harming civilians, warnings are given before any strikes and often strikes are cancelled if there is a high chance of civilian casualties. However this is war and it's difficult to avoid the harming of civilians, especially when they are used as human shields whilst rockets are fired from schools and hospitals. Hamas have every intention of killing civillians, hence why I spend hours each day in shelters whilst rockets are fired at random towards my country. Just because Israel spends far more time and money building missile interceptors, shelters and warning systems whilst Hamas uses very similar knowledge to build tunnels to attempt to go into Israel and slaughter kibbutzim, this does not equate to Israel using unequal levels of force, purely the difference between how a government and a terrorist organisation look after their people. Israel has the aim of setting gaza free from Hamas, Hamas preach of the death of all Jews.

 

But you are taking sides but your interpretation of what Hamas are thinking. They dont want the State of Israel to exist. They have said so, and admit that they will use violence against Jews. Their Charter says ""The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews [and kill them]; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him." That is indisputable. Now, of course, they are under siege, but only because Gaza is being used as a staging post for that very violence against the Jews.

Personally. I feel that the Israelis often go well beyond acceptable behaviour, but I am not in their situation and I just wonder how others would react under this constant threat from their violent neighbours, who even some Arab nations have classified as terrorists. Hamas also used violence to seize power in Gaza in the first place. I struggle to join the apologists for their violence.

As for this "pressing need for statedom" from both sides, there is only one Jewish State in the entire world, and their are many Arab/Muslim States in the world and they totally surround Israel. Which side has the most "pressing need"?

 

Israel wants to set Gaza free whilst killing half the people that live there?

 

I don't know about your quote and it is ****ing repulsive I agree, but their charter also agrees the rights of Jews and Christians to live in peace with Muslims and the organisation has offered to recognise Israel in return for a Palestinian state on the basis of the pre 1967 borders. I am not taking sides at all, but your constant description of them as violent and the Israelis as merely sometimes going too far is.

Hamas also does not represent all Palestinians and why on earth would you consider that they do not need a state? You wouldn't go and live in France just because it is also Christian. Have you not noticed that when Palestinians live in other countries it tends not to go well for them?

Islamic Fundamentalism is a desperation politics - can be undermined with peace and development,

 

Yes, I am usually opposed to violence, suicide bombs in market places, and pledges to destroy a race or religion through violence, so maybe I am taking sides, but that doesn't mean that I totally accept what the other side are doing.

I havn't said that Hamas/Palestinians do not need a state, I said that their need is not as pressing as Israels. In Christian countries, we understand the need to move to better our lives. That tends to be to Countries of a similar culture to our own. So, that is why I have some family and friends now living in the US, Australia, France, Spain, Switzerland and Italy. Why is it so abhorrent for Palestinians to consider doing the same rather than fighting over what was a bit of desert before 1948. Remember, the disputed territories were lost when the Arab world tried to drive the Jews back into the sea in 1967. Sometimes people have to live with the consequences of their own actions.

 

Children are dying. In my mind that means any historical or political context is ****ing irrelevant.

 

Because of a 'pressing need' Moog. These kids are an existential threat, and should be living in France anyways.

 

The last sentance tickeled me a little here zztop. Are you saying a Palestinian born after 1967 is culpable for the actions of the Egyptian military government? Because the crux of your post seems to be, since they are all Muslim (as far as your perception goes) then they should just accept a life living in refugee camps in foreign lands as some sort of karma?

 

If Hamas stopped attacking Israel today, then I am pretty sure that Israel would stop retaliating. Of course, they wont as they are happy to sacrifice these children for a slice of world opinion.

 

Israel has killed Children. Children don't fire rockets.

It's as simple as that really.

 

But would Israel stop the extra judicial murders and the stranglehold of blockade? Would it restore land and property stolen, make reparations and allow statehood?

Your analysis is incomplete. You seem to believe the Palestinians have an ideal which has sustained them for 70 years of fighting rather than day to day oppression.

 

Its perfectly possible to condem the actions of Hama's in respect to the civilian poluations of both Israel and Palestine, while also condemning the actions of the Israeli military I'm regards to their treatment of civilians.

 

Agree with this. I can abhor Hamas and agree that they are a terrorist, extremist organisation, but the 3 boys on a beach were not.

 

If you really think it is as simple as that, then you really have little understanding of the issues.

Obviously, killing children is wrong and the justifiable uproar is exactly what Hamas planned for when they refused the ceasefire brokered by Egypt. The rockets are fired from schools, mosques etc and innocent people and children are being used as human shields.The Israeli's dont want to kill children and that is why warnings have normally been given before such raids.

What do you suggest the Israeli's do then, when Hamas are sending rockets in the direction of their children? Just sit back and wait for the inevitable dead Jewish children to follow the three innocent teenagers kidnapped and executed by Hamas a few weeks ago?

 

Of course we can, and I do, and I have.

 

I've deliberately tried to stay out of this debate but quite frankly I've had enough. For the sake of humanity we as a nation should a) recognize Palestine as a sovereign nation (pre 67 borders IMO) but not Hamas as a legal entity within it. And b) threaten (it's the only thing they understand) Israel with economic sanctions and more if necessary.

That's what we should do however there's no way on Earth our puppet-masters will let us do it (and people ask why I don't love America?)

 

I think godfather and zztop have shown why so many people recuse themselves from the Israel/Palestine debate. Its like having two separate conversations at the same time, but one to voices is louder.
I think the killing of civilians is wrong and that it should stop. WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU HATE ISRAEL/PALESTINE! 1967 ECONOMIC BLOCKADES AND NEGATIVE PR. THIS IS SO MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN YOU CAN UNDERSTAND AND ALL JEWS/MUSLIMS AND 100% RIGHT/WRONG.

 

You put Israel and Jews first you bias ****!!!!

 

Simple solutions are usually the best ... If governments won't listen then make them listen!

 

Its part of my 'agenda'.

Seriously though, to answer zztop, given that this exchange of rockets and bloodshed has gone on for time immemorial and that Hamas is universally recognised as 'not of the people' I would just sit back. The current course of action never achieves anything. try a non-military response and see if maybe this time things change. Try reaching out to non-hamas organisations for a dialogue and see if things change. Offer the Palestinians a better alternative to the life they know and see if things change. And if it doesn't, then we can go back to flechnel grenades and collective punishment.