Russia versus Ukraine

The main thrust of the attack in 1967 came from the Golan Heights and the West Bank due to their strategic importance. For example, the West Bank region juts into Israel such that a military thrust of only about 15 miles or so (Watford to Harrow and back) to the coast would split Israel in two. How can Israel contemplate giving that strategically important land back when it is the stated intent of their enemies to wipe Israel from the map through violence.

It wasn't just Egypt either it was about a dozen countries involved. Far fairer would be for those countries to offer a safe haven to those who who were displaced due to the war. To be fair, Jordan did offer a haven for many, I am sure that some of the other countries could do the same.

 

So when you said people have to live with their decisions (in 1967) you were talking about what? The Jordanian and other regional governments? Not the Palestinians? In which case, what does it have to do with anything in this thread?

 

So they just take it ... So why don't you just give your neighbour the bottom of your garden?
And anyway, then they build on this land so what becomes of the buffer zone you speak of?

 

It's only not as simple as that if you wish to make it so. Killing civilians and children is not the only course of action open to Israel. If you think it is, then it is you who is suffering from a lack of understanding.

 

They did not intend to kill 3 kids on a beach.

But, ok, simply, tell us what these simple course of action are, bearing in mind of course the stated intent to use violence against the Jews by the rulers in Gaza.

You never know, if the right people read this thread you may end up solving this simple problem.

 

The Arab world that took the decision to try push the Jews into the sea.

I think it is quite amazing that there is hardly any specific criticism of Hamas, apart from a very few, even about the kidnapping and killing of teenagers, deliberately and coldly executed. It is all anti Jew and anti Israel. Quite distasteful, IMO.

I also think some of you ought to do a bit of reading of history on why they think that the Palestinians should have a claim to this land any more than the Jews. You will see that it is not quite as clear cut as you think and depends just how far you want t go back.

 

I think you missed a post of mine a little while ago where I said how dispiriitng it was that if you took a view that killing civilians is wrong, someone would shout you down with a separate conversation, variously mitigating one evil by comparing it to another, referencing events from a time when all the decision makers must be dead, conflating Jews and arabs with Israeli governments and Palestinian authorities and, of course, equating criticism of an isolated action with a deep hatred of an entire race. Thanks for so brilliantly, and without irony (I think), putting it all succinctly in one post. Honestly, I thought squibba or Clive would get there first.

 

Well, I am sorry, but I don't really know what point you are making.

But, if it is that, for the current events we should concentrate on the current situation today rather than looking back, then I totally and wholeheartedly agree with you.
...but, if you are saying that my post could have been written by Clive, then I have probably totally misunderstood

...and, by the way, I would not suggest that the kidnapping and killing of those three teenagers is any justification whatsoever for the Israeli attacks. That event does not cause a current threat.

 

That would be consolation to you... that they didn't mean it?

They obviously mean it because they keep on doing it despite knowing that kids will die.

That should be obvious and not make the person saying it a Hamas supporter.

 

It almost goes without saying that we don't support Hamas, or anti-semitism.

The Israelis are there now, have the right to live there in peace without fear of rockets and the attacks should cease. Israel should have the right to defend itself with restraint. But it doesn't have the right to solely claim land that has been occupied by various different peoples, nor blockade the Palestinians. Negotiating out of these issues is the key to peace and security and the key to withering Hamas.

 

It would require massive international effort. Israel/Palestine would both require recognition from all the nutjobs in the region. This is why I think a joint entity, two states one federation with co-citizenship rights might be necessary. It would make an attack on Israel by Iran, Syria or Egypt an attack on Palestine. The UN would be required to ensure the external security of this entity. And then a process of truth and reconciliation would be required.

Don't know about this Lex Talionis by the way. Is he back up for Pudil or a replacement for Deeney?

 

ZZtop, the surrounding Arab nations hate the palestinians just as much as Israel. One of the reasons for the 1967 war was to give Palestine a homeland just so they didn't have to deal with the refugees they thought were ruining their own countries. Not quite as simple as telling them to spread into the countries who want nothing to do with them.

Why not give Gaza and the West Bank to Palestine as sovereign nations, and have an effective UN blockade ensuring no rockets and ammunition is allowed in. A UN buffer zone to stop Iran et al arming Hamas as soon as the border is open. Also widen Gaza's fishing zones without encroaching on Israeli fishing zones and have UN naval vessels doing checks on ships going to and from Gaza. And an incredibly strict UN checkpoint entering Jerusalem allowing it to be an international city.

 

i guess it's a generational thing.
for people of my age, it's just a case of the israeli government and hamas doing bad shizzle with the normal population (israeli and palestinian) as victims. in this context, hamas is viewed as a ****ty terrorist organisation so it almost goes without saying that their actions are beyond reproach. for a nation-state with a little buit more power in their punch though, occasionally we like to hold them to a higher ideal. every atrocity (on both sides) is ****, but shouldn't be used as a reason to do more ****. and no one should say "of course i'm against killing children, but in 1967 something happened, and in 1991 another thing happened with another government so of course, it's kind of understandable."

for your generation, its seems more about arabs\muslims and jews (and christians), 1967 peace accords and british mandates. the careful assignment of a right and wrong, a clear victim and aggressor. a (weary) acceptance of the current cycle of ****. a zero-sum idea that the happiness of one peoples will take away from the happiness of another. a presumption that any criticism of an action is equivalent to the abhorence of an entire culture.

 

The UN is weak - it wouldn't work.

 

The Palestinians are an amalgamation of Arabs from the surrounding countries anyway. The original Palestine from 100 odd years ago was given almost an arbitary border line that incorporated the current Israel and Jordan and many of the Palestinians were in Israel due to the extra opportunity there. In my view there is a degree of responsibility there.

I don't really enough to know whether your plan would work. It sounds good, but it surely would be difficult to sort out Hamas from ordinary folk during the transition and then difficult policing the politics of the new areas. After all, Hamas violently took power in Gaza, I would think they could do it again in Gaza and the West bank. Remember, Hamas dont just want land, they ant the extinction of Israel if their Charter is to be believed. Incidently, as part of earlier peace talks it was asked whether this Charter could be re-written to move away from change the overt hatred of the Jews, but Hamas refused, saying that it is just too ingrained to be changed now. Finally, it almost seems that your idea would just generate another enclave without freedoms, not the ideal solution maybe?

 

I didn't realise the first sentence. Were they just there as part of the Ottoman empire or did they arrive after the fall of it?

You wouldn't need to stop Hamas believing in the genocide of Israel, just strict enough borders so as to not allow weapons in so it could carry it out. I agree it is just too ingrained now. Childrens tv shows indoctrinate the children. I remember seeing the tv show "You have been watching" where Charlie Brooker reviews a Gazan tv show in which a man in a white bunny costume calls for the genocide of Israel and praises suicide bombers. It does seem very difficult to stop that sort of brain washing once it occurs. Also I remember an interview with some Gazans where they were talking of their duty to produce as many children as possible in order to increase the number of men able to fight. Important to remember not all Palestinians subscribe to the genocide of Israel, just as not all Israelis, let alone Jews, are zionists.

 

Sorry, but you are totally wrong about my views. I have never said that there is a right or wrong, a clear victim or aggressor, etc. I think completely think the opposite.

In the Hague thread I said...

"The Middle East/Arab world is a muddled place. Look at our own problems, and magnify it 100 times"

I think each "side" has valid and legitimate claims and fears and they are ingrained, entrenched and stubborn - not much, in my view is clear.

Except that is that it is wrong to kill or risk killing people unless it is to prevent a clear and imminent threat or danger in "self defence" a term that I think Israel use far too often to justify violence.

So for an example, if Israel is trying to destroy a Hamas rocket launcher then it may be acceptable, but Israel going on a revenge attack because of the recent teenage kidnappings and executions, is wrong. Hamas's indiscriminate use of rockets is wrong, suicide bombers are wrong, whatever the complaint is.

 

Whats worried me most is that after all this time I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel, they are not even close to a compromise, I don't really know a lot about the history about the place but one thing is for sure you really don't want to muck about with Israel, they really do stick up for themselves and don't give a dam what others think, and the arab world would be more than happy to use nuclear weapons on Israel if they could get their hands on them. What I read into it is that the arabs are happy to see Israel act the way they do in order to try and grab the moral high ground. Been to Israel and was a great country with great people and terrorist and supporters of terrorist certainly would not get away with things there like they do in the UK, I personally think that is a good thing but most people are happy with our tolerance levels.

 

Israel is the nation of common sense

 

Thank God for Jon Snow

 

Squibba what's your view on Hamas spending millions building tunnels to murder thousands of mothers and children, including my girlfriends family on the holiest day of the year? Don't let your religion shape your views, Hamas are filthy terrorists who openly say they want the death of all Jews. Israel does not want to harm any innocent civilians, Hamas revels in the death of innocent children in gaza as positive propaganda.

Israeli air strikes target specific Hamas infrastructure, and only after prior warning is given to civillians to leave, those who die are often acting as human shields, either voluntarily or as a result of Hamas firing from schools and hospitals. Hamas rockets are fired at random with the intention of killing civilians such as myself, thank god our government invests in defence and warning systems and not tunnel systems designed to kill. Israel would never have acted if not for 2000 rockets fired for no reason at our country, but thank god they did, because otherwise 3000 of us would be dead and the world would know what scum Hamas, not gazans are. We want gazans free just as much as they do, but free from a government who preach for the death of all Jews, who unfortunately have the power to wipe out every single gazan if that's what we really wanted. Imagine if Hamas had that power.

 

YK my views on Hamas spending millions to build tunnels are the same as my views on Israel spending billions on state of art military weapons. Both disgusting.

Listen to yourself, look at the figures, FIVTY FIVE PERCENT of Palestine's population is under 24. Israel are killing far more kids than Hamas are.

Despite that both are still wrong but the only reason I side with Palestine is because they'll fire one rocket (stupidly obviously) and then Israel will bombard them with rockets for 24 hours due to that.

"Israel and the militant group Hamas agreed to a 12-hour lull in fighting beginning early Saturday, and U.S. Secretary of State John F. Kerry declared that a longer cease-fire in the Gaza Strip could be finalized before a Muslim feast beginning early next week.

But Israel rejected a proposal by the United States and United Nations for a seven-day truce. Its defense minister, Moshe Yaalon, put troops on notice Friday that ground operations in the coastal enclave could be expanded."

So Hamas rejected one truce now Israel are doing the same.

It's a humanitarian issue borne out of politics. Politically Israel are wrong but when it comes to the war both are as bad as each other.

 

If Israel were just protecting their borders (which they're well capable of) I might have some sympathy. They don't and for that reason I don't. Hamas are no better but without them Palestine would've been rolled up long ago.
Both need dragging to the table under threat from the international community but the big players won't let that happen.

 

I don't think anyone would deny Gazans need to be freed from Hamas tyranny.

 

I hate Hamas, but I love tzatsiki.

 

I only like hamas if the bread is warm.

 

It is really looking grim now. The bullying Russians are invading.

 

Why are all these contested territories always horrible ****holes or inhospitable wildernesses?

Nobody is ever fighting over the Maldives or the Seychelles or somewhere actually nice. It's always an industrial wilderness, or a desert, or some ****ty rocks in the sea.

Idiots.

 

FT reports that EU leaders met to discuss a sports ban on Russia.

 

Is this the beginning of the end? Russia kidnapping an Estonian citizen on the boarder.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/05/estonian-security-officer-abducted-border-russia