Russia versus Ukraine

israel has given palestine multiple opportunities to come to the table.

 

you can't base your opinion on who is the instigator based on a death toll. the israelis have a very advanced missile defence system, hence their death toll is going to be far lower. palestine militants continuing to fire rockets into israeli territory during ceasefires is all the bloody provocation they needed, and rightly so tbh.

 

Come to the table about what? It's Palestine's land why should Israel even have a say in it. Ridiculous.

 

Jumping to conclusions based on no evidence isn't looking at the wider picture.

Hamas were, they initiated rocket fire. Israel have repeatedly adhered to a ceasefire which hamas broke. Both sides are ****s. Anyway thats for a different thread.

 

Who told you that BBC or Sky?

 

Reuters, and a range of media sources.

 

How anybody can possibly defend Israel is beyond me. Gaza is not Israeli territory.

 

Hamas dont want peace they are warmongers as are most Islamic extremists like ISIS etc Hamas and ISIS kill more muslims and arabs than Israel could ever hope to emulate.

 

So what's Israel's excuse?

An absolutely stupid statement. Terrorists who are Muslims yes doesn't mean it's based on the religion. When has Hamas ever committed a crime in the name of Islam? 'Islamic' extremists ****ing gets on my ti*s.

 

Hamas is constantly firing rockets into Israel? Hardly the actions of a group that wants peace in the region. It is Hamas that continually breaks the ceasefires.

And as for who tells us that information it is reported by a wide range of news sources. Your beginning to sound like the russians at the moment, rushing to the defence of the indefensible. I am not pro-israeli, and I am not pro-hamas, however hamas is responsible for the current problems. the israelis are just protecting their own.

 

are you off your ***s? between 2000 and 2008 there were 147 suicide bombings committed by palestinians. off these many were committed by either the 'Palestinian Islamic Jihad' or the 'Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade'. In many of the attacks joint responsibility was claimed by......yes you guessed it...Hamas.

 

What's that got to do with Islam? It's not a religion issue.

And yes they are but are you forgetting the bit where they entered Palestinian land to claim it as their own? Or the bit where they are now partaking in ground offence in Palestine?

Hamas is wrong as well, it should back down because it can't defeat Israel, Israel is far too powerful but instead of admitting defeat they keep attacking as if they have some pride or something. However to say Israel are protecting their own is laughable? How anyone can say there isn't an agenda to their attacks??

 

So why doesn't anyone in the media label Israel Zionists as terrorists? Every Israeli attack should be described as 'Zionism extremism' then no? Any Israeli fighter should be called a Zionist Extremist no?

 

Odd I don't ever remember the French Resistance beinng called terrorists. If Israel wants peace in the region just pull out of all occupied territories.

 

That's because they targeted German soldiers and supply lines, not innocent civilians.

 

If German citizens moved into French houses not sure they could be classed as innocent.

[video=youtube;yL4D7NSFN5M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL4D7NSFN5M[/video]

 

i never said they weren't? i was just replying to your incredibly naive point when your saying hamas is not driven by religion. hamas are an organisation with terrorism at its very core. to say anything else is just crazy.

philly: do you honestly think that would make a difference? there has been war in that region for as long as there has been people there to propagate it. the whole area is like a bloody nightmare.

 

How is that naive?

I'm still waiting for an answer as to why you think it's driven by religion.

 

are you serious?

 

Yes I am, find me a reason where these recent attacks by Hamas are in the name of Islam.

 

I don't think it's driven by religion. It's only ever refered to by all comentators as the Arab/Israeli conflict never the Muslim/Jewish one.

 

unless your being incredibly dense, the whole bloody conflict has been driven by religion. do you even know what hamas manifesto is?

 

The Hamas agenda in the Palestine/Israel conflict is nothing to do with religion. It's an agenda driven by the fact they believe Palestinian land has been stolen.

They might use religion to garner support and motivate their fighters, but unlike the Irish Troubles the root of the conflict is not a religious one. It's all about land and stems back to the British Mandate for Palestine.

Yes, it's our fault. The current major issues plaguing the Middle East are almost entirely of the making of Western nations.

 

The goal of Hamas is an Islamic fundamentalist Palestinian state. Its manifesto advocates the destruction of the state of Israel, and calls for the raising of "the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine."

Although the manifesto is outdated, and the dispute is mainly about land arakel. Religion is far more than just an incendiary device used by Hamas to garner support.

 

and for what its worth i have not got a clue why we are debating this in this thread?

 

It's not nothing to do with religion. Religion is used to control and influence the masses into believing and contributing towards each sides given agendas. Things like suicide bombing Israeli civilians can only be carried out by people who believe in odd things like heaven. Sam Harris I think said once you can believe in things like heaven, those in power can manipulate that to make you believe in anything. Same goes for zionism, the religion is used to influence the people. But at its core the conflict isn't over who's religion is correct, although both believe they were given that land by God.

You could say the Irish troubles were caused by awful oppression not by religion but it'd be silly to say religion didn't play a part in it.

 

Heaven is silly? I think believing God doesn't exist is silly doesn't mean I think you're a suicide bomber.

 

100,00 people attend a march in London for Palestine and it gets no coverage. 100 people turn out for a gay pride protest and it's on the news. Media agenda? I think so.

 

Atheists don't believe God doesn't exist, we have a lack of belief in God. Big difference.

The London march was all over the BBC and twitter and the papers.

 

the daily fail did one of the longest articles i'd ever seen on it?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tors-mass-outside-Israels-London-embassy.html

 

The only sensible solution would be for Israel to kill all the Palestinians, because they're all collectively responsible, right?

 

I cant pretend I am an expert on all the comings and goings last winter, but my understanding is that there was a majority of Ukraine behind more pro Euro integration, although less so, in the East. I believe that the new government asked for loans to save the economy, and both Europe and Russia offered loans, including cheap gas prices from Russia. Since then, only Russia (not the West), as far as we know has used force, amassing troops and supplying arms, including tanks and missiles to the separatists. I am not sure if the West (or Russia) was right with their offers of support and loans etc. But, as the Ukraine was a totally independent nation, Russia should not be using force in that country, either directly or indirectly. MH17 was one of the consequences and a severe escalations of the tensions are likely to result - something I feared would happen and my quote #106 from earlier in this thread illustrates my view on the subject. I said...

...and my view hasn't changed now.

 

I've only glanced briefly through this thread, but I've seen enough to be astounded at how anyone can stick up for either side in the Palestine/Israeli conflict - there are utter ******* on both sides. Trying to present rational arguments for an irrational war is a complete non-starter and a waste of valuable internet time - especially when there is so much porn to watch. I'm only writing this because my PC can have two windows open simultaneously.