Russia versus Ukraine

This was something a chap on the Beeb alluded to last night. High tech armoury given to novice operators.

 

I think we can safely assume said 'novice operators' are no longer with us.

 

Gone back to Villa?

 

If that's another way of saying shot in the back of the head and dumped in a ditch somewhere then yes, yes they have.

 

I disagree. I think the Russians will put them on public trial and end up giving them the death sentence, (if they have that in Russia), or life in Siberia.

 

The Russians have already blamed the Ukrainian army and I'd be amazed if they changed their minds and publicly denounced the rebels.

 

They are more likely to publicly trash Malaysian Airlines.

But it's nice of Vladimir to suggest peace talks now, just a pity this inspirational idea didn't occur to him earlier.

 

Making an already awful event even worse, around 100 of the passengers were possibly "top AIDS researchers" heading to a major conference.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/cras...o-melbourne-20140718-zuaw3.html#ixzz37mkAFtTn

 

Obama confirms it was shot down by Russian Separatists.

 

It's so 1980's they should put a Bananarama soundtrack on it.

The West has hardly helped the cause of peace either. Ukraine is hugely split between Ukrainians and Ethnic Russians. The elected Government deserved to lose power, but it was an elected Government. It was replaced following a coup with the fighting largely done by far right nationalists. Look up 'Svoboda'. The Western response was to recognise it as a new Government and give $18bn of aid, which is curious to say the least given what we say abut elected Govts the rule of law etc.

The Russians were never going to accept the prospect losing a Naval base in their neighbouring country - It would be worse than us losing Gibraltar, nor did the people living in Crimea want them to.

We should have insisted on new elections and a unity Government, but we didn't because we wanted to reduce Russian influence. The reaction of hardline nationalist Russia should have been predictable.

The Ukrainians and those caught in the crossfire are victims of super power games. Both West and East should be helping the cause of peace with everything they have.

 

I see they are suggesting that it was either Ukraine or the West that shot down the aircraft because they thought it was Putins aircraft!

The trouble is, it isn't just Russians that believe that type of rubbish. Clive will be diligently preparing his next post as we speak.:naughty:

 

Yesterday the Kremlin denied Putins plane flew that route.

 

They did, but Pravda is still suggesting that someone thought it was Putin, even though they would have been mistaken.

 

Look at the numbers. Model number of plane and the date.

[video=youtube;QYmViPTndxw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYmViPTndxw[/video]

 

They still refuse to apologise and still blame the pilot for not responding to warnings.

 

20th July 2014 something big will happen?

 

Who knows, if you look into the way the elite works, their history and what they believe then you know whats up. The whole thing is being orchestrated from on high. An interesting read might be Aleister Crowleys Liber 777 and look into his life and who he mixed with, the founder of Scientology being one and one of the founders of Nasa's JPL being another.

 

A few pages back we were talking about air corridors and how this plane shouldn't have been flying in this area. Look at this website http://planefinder.net. It's amazing to see all the planes avoid eastern Ukraine and fly over the border or into Russia, which makes it very strange that the pilot decided to fly through eastern Ukraine. For note, the plane went down between the towns of Krasni Luch and Shakhtarsk.

 

Am i missing something but itsn't that live? A lot of airlines have admitted to flying over the area, and the flight was well above 31,000ft. Also MA have been in financial troubles (even prior to the last tragedy back in March when one of the claims was poor maintenance) so it makes sense they would take the cheapest route.

 

Yeah that's live. Obviously since the incident no airplane will be flying over that area, but I was told that many planes didn't fly in that area anyways pre-incident. And are you implying that the airplane was purposely targeted Aber Hornet and not a mistake (note I have no idea or conclusion on that question)? As for cheapest route, wouldn't that be the most direct route, which would be what most planes are taking (the corridor going through the Black Sea via Moldova)

 

No certainly not intending to imply it was targeted - just that some airlines may have judged the risks differently. So tragic. I've just got back from 6 months away and just keep thinking how lucky i am to be back safe

 

You at it again?

It has got nothing to do referendums and nothing to do with an accident that happened 26 years ago, are you completely bonkers?

You spend several posts telling us how we should stay out of disputes in other countries, such as Syria, and then you try and make excuses for the Russians in this particular case.

Is it you that writes the Pravda articles?

 

You are itching to find some old style Sovietism to take a bash at aren't you ZZ? Why don't you try some even handedness?

This was a wicked event and almost certainly the blame lies with the separatists and their militaristic, nationalist supporters in the Kremlin and their reckless and inhumane behaviour.

The reason there is a war there is more complex. For example, what is your opinion of the EuroMaidan revolt and how would you have viewed it if you were Ethnic Russian in Ukraine? What would your expectation be for a country where one section of society (pro-EU) has seized power by violence?

As for 26 years ago, can I assume you won't be mentioning Arthur Scargill again? Or Jesus for that matter? It's relevant because it's what happens when a world power stokes up conflict.

 

Haha 'wrong place wrong time' REALLY?

Absolutely stinks of corruption.

An attack that muddies the water a bit whilst Israel go further into Palestine.

Then again I'm just a loopy conspiracy theorist what do I know.

 

If the separatists and their Russian backers come clean, instead of trying to lie their way out of this, then I may place more credence in what they say on other matters.

It isn't Russia bashing from me specifically. Today, if the Irish government gave Sam 11 type missiles to the IRA, or The UK gave the missiles to the Unionist side, who then shot down an overflying transatlantic airliner, I would have been equally appalled. I absolutely would not be trying to make any sort of justification for the tragedy with talk about the political situation in NI, and if there were innocent Russian passengers on board the plane, I wouldn't be suggesting "Well, it happened in Ukraine, so the Russians can't complain"

Similarly, if I had, like Smudger, been preaching that we shouldn't get involved in any way other countries problems, I wouldn't be making excuses for Russia using force in Ukraine, just a day or two later. As I have mentioned before, it is the hypocrisy that annoys me.

Some historic events are relevant to an argument. But every single powerful nation in history have been involved in some terrible events and have perpetrated some atrocities, including the UK and USA, but that is no justification for perpetrating such appalling events today.

 

The propaganda coming out of the Kremlin is appalling. Dog ate my homework type stuff.

 

It's true that there is nowhere for Russia to hide on this issue. Even if it turned out that the plane was shot down by Ukraine (not at all likely) Russia is still providing weapons to stoke this conflict and it's the conflict itself that provides the theatre for these terrible events.

But we can discuss the rights and wrongs of the conflict and we should ensure that our Government and the EU isn't also stoking the fire. So what of the EuroMaidan revolt ZZ, did the West react to it correctly?

 

If you believe the puny little Ukraine we were all worried over are capable or firing a rocket then you're loopier than I am.

There is no reason why Russia or Ukraine would shoot down a commercial plane it benefits them in absolutely no way at all. It's also the timing is far too clever for it to be an accident.

90% of Donetsk were in favour of secession but we all stuck our noses in. Now Ukraine's in the news and everyone's talking to Putin? Why should Putin be Ukraine's daddy now.

Oh and whilst this flight takes front page news Israel has now expanded it's ground attack on Palestine.

 

So because you don't know who shot it down you're jumping to conclusions due to a lack of evidence. God of the gaps type nonsense.

Meanwhile Hamas continue to refuse a ceasefire.

 

Rather consider all avenues by looking at the wider picture.

Oh come on mate, really..

'The latest deaths bring the toll to over 350 Palestinians, and seven Israelis'

And you want to tell me Hamas are the instigators? Israel don't want a ceasefire, they want the land and they won't stop till they succeed.