Cleverley & Cathcart - Enough Is Enough

So...Knight said was that Cathcart has been ok recently (true), and was MOM against Villa (true). Also said he had a poor game yesterday (true) and needs replacing (true).

Really not sure what's so weird about that? Seems pretty balanced to me.

 

Debatably Kabasele as well - there must be a reason why Cathcart is constantly picked over him and in the last couple of months over WTE, and he set the ball rolling with his poor pass that led to the collapse against Norwich (he also didn't cover himself in glory by being well out of position to allow Duffy a free header for Brighton's opening goal in the away fixture). And he played fewer games than Cathcart last season.

 

Someone on twitter replying on the Leventhal thread just stated that Cathcart was "excellent" yesterday. Absolutely incredible.

 

It is genuinely insane the realms some of the replies and opinions will go to on Twitter (and The Athletic comments sections) - they make any poster on here, no matter their alignment, seem like the most rational and intelligent paragon of virtue possible.

And then there's that Jonathan Brick creature...

 

Because certain people bizarrely refuse to acknowledge or talk about the poor/bad/woeful performances of certain players, of which there are far, far more.

 

Think for the most part, the balanced (positive?) people on here usually acknowledge when someone has made a mistake or had a bad game. Maybe a tiny tiny minority don't, but probably not worth getting bothered by it.

Plus you were directly replying to someone who had directly addressed the poor performances of players, in this very thread.

 

I honestly don’t understand the constant pillorying of Cleverley and Cathcart.

Last relegation it was Dawson who was the focus of the mob. To the point that some actively said they would have preferred to see Wilmott play over Dawson. I think this was summed up by a contribution that said:-

“He's crap. If a Premier League club is genuinely stupid enough to give us actual money for him (as we were stupid enough to do for West Brom) then he is certainly one player I would not p*ss and moan about leaving.

Also massive lol at preferring him to Wilmot”

Roll on a couple of seasons, Dawsons playing consistently for a team pushing for a top six Premier League finish and Wilmot a bench warmer for a struggling lower mid table championship side.

That’s not to say that both Cleverley had Cathcart are without fault. But to suggest that our poor season is down to them is to my mind scapegoating. Doucoure is on course for a second relegation in three seasons. He must be carp too then?

I think it is far more complex, and that some peoples judgements on the relative ability and contribution of individuals is often over emotional.

 

Fond memories of having a teenage Cleverley on loan in League One. Looked like Maradona at that level. He might still come good.

Seeing as Pearson’s current shtick is signing players who did a job for him at Leicester he might take him off your hands at whichever club he pitches up at next, along with David Nugent, Anthony Knockaert and Lloyd Dyer.

 

Absolutely, there is, of course, value in taking a step back, trying to divorce some emotion from your analysis (despite football support being inherently emotional) and considering multiple perspectives.

At the same time, I would question a few individual parts of your post.

I find it hard to believe that you 'honestly don't understand the constant pillorying of Cleverley and Cathcart' - it's quite clear, and very simple - they are players who are performing consistently poorly throughout the season, and have a body of performances that evidence the fact that they are nowhere near the required level to play in the Premier League with any regularity and claim to have a reasonable expectation of competing to stay up at this point in their careers. They keep playing poorly and making obvious individual mistakes. That's why they are criticised. They are in no way whatsoever the only players being criticised, though this thread is, indeed, evidence of the fact that they are seen as particular issues.

I would also hugely question the idea that it is being suggested that our poor season is down to them. I don't think a single person is saying that. That's not the point of this thread, quite clearly, and I think it's somewhat disingenuous to essentially misrepresent that as the viewpoint being pushed. Every poster who criticises those two has, and do, criticise other players too, and I don't think you can genuinely be of the belief that all the other factors that have contributed to this abysmal season are being ignored, or even overlooked, in favour of Cathcart and Cleverley. Those conversations rage day in day out here and many thousands of words have been dedicated to expounded them. You would have to have basically not read any other post on the forum to be able to legitimately claim to hold that view. And I don't think that is the case, is it?

 

I couldn't agree more. I think Cathcart in particular is being scapegoated, as was Dawson when he was here. Generally, I think he plays well, but a lot of people on here don't see the good things he does. If he really was that bad, he wouldn't be playing.

Sadly this forum often turns in to an echo chamber of pointless slagging off of players. What's the point? No one has a problem with constructive criticism, but at times people are way over the top. I'm so glad I don't sit next to the extremely negative posters on here at games.

 

Another pointless ranting thread by the shrieking banshee that is NathWFC. The crux of which is 'Let's personally attack players we know aren't good enough for the premiership for ... er... not being good enough for the premiership'. Oh but if we dare to counter his far-from-constructive criticisms, we and all other fans are 'sad, pathetic, wet, spineless, enabling losers' or words to that effect, as asserted by the same tantrum-throwing toddler in another thread, devoted to telling fans why it's all our fault. All from someone who has a picture of a woman-beating former player as his avatar picture.

We know we probably aren't good enough to stay up. We know there are problems with the club's leadership. But rally behind this nasty, spittle-flecking, hissy-fitting fool and his 'I am right, everyone else is stupid and wrong' demands? Never.

 

They have been awful and rightly deserve criticism from “the mob” as you unhelpfully put it. They are accountable for their own performances irrespective of our poor owner. The notion that they might also be playing for a top 6 team next season is rather far fetched. Dawson had one (admittedly) very poor season. Cleverly and Cathcart have been poor for season after season while somehow securing contract extensions.

 

Dawson made some errors just like he does for West Ham, but he was clearly better than either Cathcart, WTE or Kabasele.

So we aren’t allowed to discuss obviously terrible players, just because one of our old players now plays for West Ham?

 

“Shrieking banshee”. “Spittle flecking hissy fitting fool”. “Tantrum Throwing toddler”.

Man who is is upset about personal attacks on a player makes a string of personal insults about the poster.

Well done. Well done.

 

Doucoure was crap for us in the final 18 months and we did well to get £25m for him. I don’t get the relevance? Player plays crap to the point it’s enough to contribute to our relegation, we sell player, player does same thing with another club? You’re completely contradicting your point about Dawson.

Dawson also makes mistakes for West Ham and isn’t their first choice if all their CBs are fit, he’s clearly a better player than Cathcart WTE and Kabasele though.

I think you’re wildly missing the point, the fact that Dawson was heavily criticised but instead we now have and even worse player in his place in Cathcart is the very real problem, and in no small part why we’re currently 19th.

 

Well written though, tbf.

 

Although at least we see progress from the COGs.

We’ve gone from the bedwetters being wrong to them being right, just not saying things in a nice enough way. It’s a very hard truth to realise for some, there will be a lot of anger around that needs release.

 

I feel the same. I’d hate my day out to ruined by people that hate losing more than me.

 

This thread is a treat for the eyes.

 

It's easy to see why he is playing and it's not because he's good. It's because our manager is a senile old duffer who stubbornly picks certain players, ostensibly to annoy the fans. It's also massively because we have several centre backs at the club, none of whom are any good. OK Nkoulou was good for 2 games and Samir has done alright ish in some matches, but it's a position which has been criminally neglected to the point where Craig Cathcart continues to start matches.

So he plays, but he's not that bad? Check out the table. Check out our results. Check out the goals against column. He IS that bad.

I don't feel the need to personally abuse him or Clevs, but the fact that both of these clearly substandard players are regularly starting matches for us is a huge part of the reason why we are going down.

The cause of it is in our consistently poor recruitment policy which pays little heed to team needs and instead focusses on a model of bringing in a dozen random punts every year, with a heavy bias towards attacking players, in the hope that some of them appreciate in value.

It's a policy which has seen key positions in our side neglected for 3-4 seasons or more, whilst we stockpile wingers.

 

I agree with all that but I don’t blame Roy for picking him because Ranieri and Munoz did too. The blame lies squarely with Gino.

 

Tbh it's barely worth debating. I agree that the alternatives aren't much better, though I would prefer to see more of Sierralta, but it's a squad problem yes.

I think our problems are clearly far deeper than whoever happens to be manager, but I especially loathe Roy for reasons that don't need to go in this thread.

 

I said he had improved recently. Defensively we haven't been bad away from home. I'm not saying the defence is good enough and have said many times we should have made improvements but my post was on recent performances only

 

I suppose the point I was trying to make is, when it is said “enough is enough, play anyone but Cathcart or Cleverley”, the implication is that indeed those two are being singled out as the problem. Describing them as serial losers, etc, etc.

The Dawson point was that judgements on players is often over emotional. Dawson a player with two successive relegations, (did that make him a serial loser?) Is performing well enough to be in a team pushing top 6 and is making a contribution, (over 20 Premier League appearances this season).

Whereas the supposedly better young player Wilmott (if picked) would have led to a different outcome in matches. Yet he is struggling to make the grade at Stoke.

So judgements on players often reflect supporters frustrations and tend to be clouded.

Personally I think more can be laid at both the club and team management than individual players who are considered the better of the available options in the squad.

 

Thank you. Just mirroring him with the same contempt he visits upon others!

 

There was no problem with your post to be honest.

I think Nath, and a few others are guilty of personal attacks of our players simply because they are deemed not good. Whilst they might not be up to the standard of the premier league, calling them 'weak', 'cowardly' or a 'rat' is completely out of order.

It's fine if they want to go after our owners but personally attacking the players is a bridge too far.

 

Lol at this thread

Cathcart and Clevs should have never been more than squad players this season and Cathcart really should've been released and replaced over the Summer.

Clevs was playing well earlier on in the season but in true Watford fashion we put an end to that.

 

This is far better put across than the first post - and as one of the so called ‘negative’ posters, I agree with every word.

That said, Cleverley and Cathcart are well past being put out to pasture so to speak. It’s mental they still play regularly at PL level and I would think that’s something that anyone sane can see, regardless of allegiance to the ownership. Neither should really be afforded excuses for it but sadly our terrible recruitment over the last 3-4 years gives them those excuses.

 

2 More years until Cathcart’s testimonial.

 

I don't think weak is a personal attack, I do think they're weak. To be so comfortable constantly losing, to be a player with multiple relegations on your CV shows there's something lacking mentally.

Do you think Cathcart is a winner? That losses hurt him?

Same with Ben "It's just a game" Foster, there's too many of them in the squad. That's not a personal attack, it's a look at their psyche.

Two extreme examples but Ronaldo was never the most talented footballer in the world, it was through sheer determination and dedication to be the best that got him here. Ibrahamiovic still playing at 40 isn't a coincidence. James Milner still being a key part of one of the world's best teams at 36 isn't a fluke, when it comes to THAT trait / quality, we severely lack it across the board.

 

I get everyone's frustration but I'm with you on this. Individually our players are a cobbled together bunch of cheaply bought (relatively) footballers that our various DoFs have decided might be a good buy to give hope whilst keeping GP happy. We have several average players who don't reek of confidence, half the team can't hold up the ball or even take it forward on any form of "run", and the more skilful players tend to be low energy over 90 minutes.
We have a terrible record of injured players spending 3 months out just because of a muscle strain.
Add to that the fact that our recent record is appalling when it comes to us buying or loaning a player who comes, appears rubbish, but then leaves us and joins another team who thinks he's great.
Something has got to change in the way the club brings in and handles the players, because right now (for past 3 years) we are a joke...regardless of how the two Cs play.
We need a proper strategy of bringing in players in their right positions for the areas we need to improve, and what a manager needs, not hoover up a selection of unknown quantities who only come because we're in the prem....

 

There has been a lot worse insults than 'weak' used this forum to insult before Cleverly and Cathcart. I'm glad neither of them have social media.

Frankly they are not good enough as I have said, but who's fault is that? Is it the players fault that they get picked? Is it the players fault that they dont bring in players to replace them? No it isn't.

I don't think it's fair that they are constantly slated on here, when they are doing a job they are paid to so at the best of their current ability.

No wonder some people think that a section of our fans have turned into spoilt brats.

 

Sorry but this is nonsensical. You freely admit the players in question are not good enough and it’s the owners fault for not adequately replacing them (presumably you agree money has been wasted/misallocated elsewhere). Yet if someone is critical of that they are spoiled brats for agreeing with you?

 

Stop personally attacking our players! Nobody deserves to called a clown or geriatric in their 30's! It's reli, reli mean n hurtful!



Srsly pls stop or you'll force me into being a huge, hilarious hypocrite with my own responses!