Cleverley & Cathcart - Enough Is Enough

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by NathWFC, Mar 6, 2022.

  1. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    We should flog Cathcart to PSG, he’d immeasurably improve their defence.
  2. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk First Team

    Totally normal behaviour, this
  3. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    Yeah, a couple of crying GIF's and a bit of tongue in cheek sarcasm based on some of the hypocritical posts in this thread is pretty deep stuff.

    Sorry if that's not quite the bite you were hoping for. Maybe you could trudge back through some of my old posts and try again? That definitely is normal behaviour.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2022
  4. Pukey

    Pukey Academy Graduate

    There is a clear difference between the acknowledgement of certain players not being good enough for the standard of the division and constantly berating them each time they play on here. Your post is clearly disingenuous.

    The fault is with the owners and not the players. We should have strengthened at the back years ago but we didn't.

    The named players do put in 100% each week, have been good to us over a number of years and can't do much beyond that. I think it's unreasonable to consistently slag them off.
  5. Pukey

    Pukey Academy Graduate

    Neither is calling players 'rats' or 'cowards' each time we lose. It's embarrassing.

    See my above post - you can have a pop at the owners, that's fine. It's their fault we are going back down for a number of failings on their end.

    I don't agree with the persistent abuse of certain players despite their best efforts. The worst critism I have of them are that they model professionals who fall short on ability. I can't blame them for that.
    Knight GT and Maninblack like this.
  6. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    What are your thoughts on Cathcart’s comment on Fosters video when he said “the crying is tomorrow isn’t it?” Before our next important game?

    Is that a model professional in your eyes?
  7. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk First Team

    Please, save the anger for tonight
  8. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    It’s the same viewpoint. Some people are angry at the owners. Some people get angry with the players. Some do both.

    The point is you decide to call some fans spoiled brats when they have exactly the same viewpoint as you, just showing their frustrations in a different way. It makes zero sense unless you think you are a spoiled brat yourself.
  9. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk First Team

    Surely the way we express our frustrations is quite important though? We can both think Wilf Zaha is a knobber, but if I threw a 50p at his head when he's taking a corner, I'd be a d1ck, even though we have the same viewpoint.
  10. domthehornet

    domthehornet Moderator Staff Member

    A reminder to all:

    The Mod team on this forum do not believe in censoring people and encourage a healthy debate on all subjects. However we do actively discourage any personal abuse aimed at other posters and such behaviour will not be tolerated at all on this forum. This includes dragging people into an argument when they aren't even part of the discussion.

    If you deem a post to have gone too far, please report said post and we will look into it. Each report will be looked at by the team and action will be taken upon a group consultation.

    If anyone has any issue with what I have posted, please feel free to message me personally.
    SkylaRose and Cassetti's Beard like this.
  11. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Agree but not comparable. The concept of “spoiled” as it’s been used over the last 5 years is that we should be thankful for Pozzo because we have less resources therefore the non spoiled person will accept the fact we should be mid table championship and smile like an unthinking baboon :) So in that respect whether you get angry with Pozzo or angry with the duffer in midfield you are still spoiled?

    If Pukey had said “it’s no wonder some people think our fans are d1cks” then it would make sense.

    Not that I am insinuating Comrade Nath is a d1ck of course, but if pukey had that viewpoint it would at least be consistent.
  12. Pukey

    Pukey Academy Graduate

    It was literally a joke between to two mates. I really don't find that upsetting at all.

    Perhaps Foster (or his editor) should have edited that part out given how some of our fans would have taken it.

    As far as I am aware, Cathcart is a model professional and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.
  13. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    It’s only a joke because that’s the only way it supports your view.

    These are professional athletes paid the national average yearly salary for a weeks ‘work’ and they go into games expecting to lose and laughing about it.

    It’s symptomatic of the rotten attitude throughout the club.
  14. Pukey

    Pukey Academy Graduate

    Just ignore the spoilt brats comment then. I'll edit it and delete that last bit out. Just read the rest of my original post.

    The point is call the owners whatever you like. I draw the line at the anger being directed at Cathcart and Cleverly. I think it's got personal and out of order. They give 100% on the pitch, it's just the simple fact that it won't keep us up.
  15. Pukey

    Pukey Academy Graduate

    I really think you are reading way to much into it but if that's your viewpoint then fair enough.

    I can't say I agree though. To me, it was just a joke. We all make them, some appropriate some in appropriate at the time.

    I don't think it can be used as evidence of as a notch against his unprofessional.
  16. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    I’ve worked at plenty of companies where it would be unacceptable to joke about expected poor performance, I’ve also worked at some where it would be ok.

    Guess which ones are the more successful.

    Equally it isn’t an isolated incident either.
  17. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    They may well give 100% on the pitch, but they were not/have never really been good enough at PL level. Again, it isn't their fault as people and I am sure they are both very nice in person. It's more of an annoyance towards the recruitment team that they should of been shipped off a few seasons back. Cleverly works hard but his age is clearly catching him up and his legs are shot. Roy should not have kept on the 85mins against Arsenal - it was almost unfair as he was clearly struggling.

    Cathcart is very mistake prone - his error for the first goal was totally avoidable. He lacks concentration at the most vital moments in games, and being a defender it's even more galling when this happens. In his defense, he does have the odd good game, but they are to and far between. Most of the anger comes towards the players for two main reasons in my view.

    1. It's frustrating the owners never communicate with the fans' on ANYTHING
    2. Our poor season in general is wearing even the most hardened fan down. I am sure the vast majority of the playing staff do not intentionally go out to lose - but the fact of the matter is most of them are simply past their prime now, and are competing against sides with younger players who are hungry to impress or technically better players. We have needed a overhaul for a while now.
    Pukey likes this.
  18. Pukey

    Pukey Academy Graduate

    Okay. Well to me, it was just a joke made by one human to another. It's really not that deep. I'm sure there are far more inappropriate jokes we don't hear about it. I'm sure there will be others who agree.

    You found that joke upsetting, which you are rightly entitled to do. I'm sure others will agree with you.
  19. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    I didn’t find it upsetting, it’s just unprofessional and reflective of a losers mentality that’s rife throughout our club.
  20. Pukey

    Pukey Academy Graduate

    I wholeheartedly agree with you. My point is that it's utterly pointless and wrong to consistently go after the players who despite their best efforts, are not good enough for this division anymore. To the best of our knowledge they are model professional who do try to keep us up, it's just sometimes their best ain't goof enough but that's okay.

    All the anger, name calling, personal attacks should be directed upstairs to Gino and Scott who have fundamentally failed in all aspects of recruitment since 2019.
    SkylaRose likes this.
  21. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Name me a better, proven defender in our current squad than Cathcart. Don't give me Kabasele or Sierralta who we've barely seen in the Prem. There will be reasons for that under successive managers.

    Cathcart is reliable, last 90 mins, is good in the air, tackles well and is useful in that he can also fill in competently at full back.

    Where he does lose out is obviously pace, reactions and I wouldn't say his distribution is anything other than utilitarian. He's not great and this ought to be his last season at the top level I think, but just the same he's not nearly as awful as some make out.

    Who are you going to play instead? Barnacle Billy Ekong and his erratic decision making and opposition-seeking passing? N'Koulu and Etebo haven't been available and must be severely lacking match fitness. So who?

    I know if I were picking the team for tonight and Sunday, then Cathcart would be one of the first names on the teamsheet.
  22. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Yeah I don’t disagree. Owners are responsible primarily.

    I do think players need to be accountable for their own performance levels though to a certain extent. Gray wasn’t up to the level required but I doubt he would get much sympathy despite always trying his best.

    The two players in question have been at times this season below their own low ceilings. Cleverly’s lack of alertness changes the game last week and he should take criticism for that despite his limitations. They shouldn’t get a free pass.
  23. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Cathcart turns his back every time he faces a shot. Never puts his body on the line. He is poor.

    I’d play Sierralta and Kaba all day long. But as you say ideally a replacement which isn’t Cathcart’s fault.
  24. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    Cowardly. It’s a mindset. Risk aversion. I’m the same at 5 a side. People can throw their hands up at the word being used hitting their sensitivities but they don’t claim that it’s wrong.
  25. Pukey

    Pukey Academy Graduate

    Yes. Agree with everything you have said here.

    Especially last Sunday when Cleverly lost the ball to Saka - that was inexplicably bad.
    Jumbolina likes this.
  26. wfcSinatra

    wfcSinatra Predictor Choker 14/15

    So what was the reason Sierralta outperformed Cathcart in a lower division against lower quality opposition last season? He often kept him out the team. There was a reason for that too.

    Leaning on "successive managers" who haven't played him so he must be rubbish is a weak excuse when said managers have both underperformed in their roles, in fact, one got sacked.
    NathWFC likes this.
  27. **** off grandad.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2022
  28. LouOrns

    LouOrns First Year Pro

    62% aerial win percentage isn’t good for a centre back, neither is winning 45% or your tackles
  29. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk First Team

    Of all the things to get worked up about when it comes to the current state of Watford Football Club, I find it incredible some have got so upset by their interpretation of an off the cuff remark from one friend to another in a hotel corridor. Mind boggling
    Knight GT and nornironhorn like this.
  30. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    On this one I suspect Cathcart suffered because Foster has been an unprofessional idiot all season, so he got tarred with the same brush for one innocent comment.
  31. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    What's more frustrating, a player who has obvious natural quality but looks lazy on the pitch (Pereyra in his later days) or a player who has limited quality but gives it all (Cathcart)? I would be irate with the former and feel sympathy for the latter

    The blame solely lies with our owners....
  32. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk First Team

    Sucked into the immense power of the Cycling GK tractor beam of d1ckheadedness
    Jumbolina likes this.
  33. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Of course both will start tonight …

    Roy will probably drop Louza too.
  34. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    "I thought maybe he was looking a little bit tired, so I pulled him out of the warm up, with the upcoming games in mind."
    wfc4ever likes this.
  35. nornironhorn

    nornironhorn Administrator Staff Member

    Much higher aerial win % than Samir (54%). Shame Sierralta clearly isn't fancied/good enough as his aerial win % is impressive (80+%).

    Where did you get the tackles won figure from? Would be interested in seeing that stats for the other defenders.

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