[SOLD] Pervis Estupinan

Unfortunately yes

 

One would assume there would be a set fee for Osasuna to receive or pay Barca further down the line depending on if Barca want to take him...

 

Here’s the thing.

Relaying back on here things that are said in the media is kinda the point isn’t it? Doesn’t mean it’s taken as gospel!

Some people really need to chill out claiming they know others opinions on things.

 

ahh there is nothing wrong with the relay of information, however we should approach all such rumours in the same way. they are simply rumour until made official by the club.

over the last few days loads of members have been having a pop at the club over transfer moves that we simply have not heard anything official about. the club is far from perfect and they have definitely made some bad decisions, but some of the vitriol lately has been unwarranted.

 

But again, this is a place for debate and hearing people’s opinions. It’s very unlikely you here anything out of a club until it’s official - even less so from our dog-sh*t-communication club.

So all we can do is debate what we hear elsewhere - if someone goes off the deep end about something some bloke said on Twitter, then fair enough...that forum member has to expect fierce debate on his opinion. But when stories are written in fairly reliable Valencia or Catalan media (For example), then I think it’s fair to be concerned about what’s contained within and to debate it. It doesn’t have to mean you believe it word for word...

But in the past few hours, I commented on a piece from a Valencia media outlet regarding Capoue and was accused of believing ‘everything I read on Twitter’ - patently not true and it’s a bit odd as I say, when people claim to know others thoughts and opinions.

 

Nah, Marca are just '**** in a tweet' or something. I didn't really get what that meant.

The truth is, from a forum of people who get all so very upset that a pundit has predicted we will lose, any negative story will upset them to the point of spitting anger. It's all taken as a personal attack. Those who don't take it that way and try to take a neutral position are being vitriolic and all that nice stuff.

I assume it's the same being a Trump supporter.

#MakeWatfordGreatAgain
#HMSPissTheLeague

 

im sorry we disagree obviously.

we live in a world full of fake news and people talking bull. i personally think people should assess the validity and likelihood of something before getting so worked up. this is the reason we as a nation are becoming more stupid because we seem to be losing the ability to critically assess the evidence in front of us.

I’ll leave it there as I’m not getting into a debate about it.

 

Most of the people post links to credible news organisations that they've found on Twitter and do it to share with others. We could just all sit around waiting, making no comment until the club formally announces something but no point having a forum then really. Obviously there's a sliding scale of credibility of rumours but the point is for people to discuss them and think about the "what ifs".

The funny thing from my perspective is the "fake news" brigade such as yourself immediately saying you don't believe things based on nothing other than gut feeling and then posting in a supercilious fashion about how stupid other people are. For example, do you really think that numerous Valencia- and national- based journalists have all just made things up about Capoue?

 

so thinking about the potential ‘what ifs’ means it’s suddenly fair to be criticising the club for something that hasn’t even happened?

I have no problem debating a rumour, what I do have an issue with is when people start talking about rumours like fact.

i am not a happy clapper, I think the ownership has made many mistakes over the past few seasons however the criticism that has been levelled at them over the last few days is completely unfounded. Others and myself point that out and immediately get accused of being happy clappers blinded by the greatness of the pozzos.

As for you just saying we shout fake news, so many of these tweets are just out there as click bait for the numbminded. How many signings do we make each season? Maybe 4-5. How many players are we ‘reliably linked’ with throughout the summer? It’s got to be over 100 in each of the past few seasons.

There has to be some give and take on both sides here. I have no issue discussing rumours but don’t think it should degenerate into pozzo and co bashing.

 

Indeed. The posters who jump down people's throats for daring the post a link to a spanish news outlet are frankly strange. One poster in particular does it every thread. "Has he left yet?" "Don't believe rubbish on twitter". I preferred the time when he called me a "helmet" as it dawned on him that Pozzo had got us relegated rather than his current passive aggressive superior antics.

Any post which is vaguely critical of the Pozzo regime is "vitriol". We have some very odd fans.

 

http://sportwitness.co.uk/club-disc...layer-hornets-stand-firm-demands-summer-sale/

Good news (if true) for Watford supporters, but perhaps not for Estupinan and his agent.

 

We don't need to use rumours to "bash" Pozzo. We can just look at the squad mismanagement over the last 2 years and the state of the clubs finances. Oh. And the fact we got relegated in a season where that awful Villa team stayed up.

Releasing Capoue (or indeed any player) isn't a reason in itself to be critical of the owners. It's just a necessary cause of action due to numerous previous failings.

 

**** Barcelona. The arrogance to baulk at a €15m asking price when they pay their players as much as they do AND are offering Firpo around for double that price.

 

I’m not sure that’s the case though would TH everyone. I perfectly understand the criticism of the pozzos. We were relegated and they got it monumentally wrong. I was disgusted that they got rid of nige too.

However I don’t think you can bash them over something that hasn’t happened yet.

We might just have to agree to disagree on this occasion mate.

 

Sure no problem in agreeing to disagree. I just think labeling anyone stupid when they are concerned about player sales is unwarranted.

My personal view is that player sales are necessary due to previous poor performance by the owners. This is a symptom rather than further errors. However, I do think dispatching Capoue, especially when there is no transfer fee is a mistake, or rather a sign that our finances are now so bad that we have no realistic hope of mounting an automatic promotion challenge.

 

Completely agree with everything you have said here. I think the more rational members on both sides of the debate completely agree.

Others in this thread and others have never lambasted people for concerns about player sales. What we are saying is that some of the comments towards ownership are not deserved in relation to the current situation. If the comments are more generally relating to the last 18 months of the pozzo regime then by all means double down as by and large their decision making has been very poor.

I am however all for giving them a chance to make it right this season.

 

Just to pick up on the final part. Plenty of people have followed the financial situation the club were in before relegation, and although the club owes money, the vast majority of it is to the owners themselves. We do not owe substantial sums outside of that.

It's in the owner's interest to get us promoted this season. By my rough calculations we will be short of around £50m, had we stayed up. That shortfall can easily be serviced through selling just a few high profile players, but only the bare minimum.

The club has to run (for this season only) as a Premier League side. Of course, if we fail to go up, then I would expect big sales to occur at that point which is totally understandable.

If we do not take this calculated risk, and just sell everyone by panicking then we will quickly fade away, and even players like Gray and Success would be beyond our pulling power.

I don't buy into the notion that we are in a really bad way financially. There would be a far bigger push to get Sarr out the door if that was the case.

If Capoue goes, it wont be because of financial issues, or rather it shouldn't be because of that. It would be because of an error of judgement on the player's worth to the side.

We cannot pretend the owners know better than the fans. Last season proved that. Many were crying out for defensive reinforcements, but they knew better.....yet didn't. Relegation proved that point. So don't fall into the trap of thinking the board has it all under control and know exactly what they are doing. For me, they have to prove themselves once more. The good things they have done in the past....is the past. Their recent judgement over many things has been poor, and now they've got to get this summer's transfer window right. They cannot afford anymore dud decisions.

 

I don't believe this is true...............we have a large amount of external debt, about £70m?

 

A lot of that's is the bank loan from Barclays. This is in advance of the parachute money we'll be receiving. That's nothing to be worried about, as that money is guaranteed.

 

I don't think so. We have indeed borrowed from Barclays against future parachute money. However we also owe £70m to a company called 23Capital which is a loan secured against the value of the ground and player assets. We also owe about £50 million in transfer fees installments.

In summary we have borrowed against the ground, the players and the future revenue streams. So I'd say it is a concern given we have been relegated and COVID kills match day revenue as well.

 

I can go back to calling you a helmet if it helps? Twitter is 99% rubbish but people criticise the club when they see rumours they don't like on it. I also see people criticising Gino over loaning Capoue with agreed purchase in a year despite the fact this hasn't happened. It maybe a slightly more reliable source but it's still journalists who suggest they're ITK
I know an ex very well known journalist very well and he always talked a load of tosh and admitted it.
By the way way it never dawned on me Gino got us relegated. He has a part to play but so do a lot of people at the club

 

Do we not still owe a fair amount in transfer instalments to clubs?

Not saying we do, just curious if you or anyone else knows?

I would expect we probably still have a fair bit left to pay for Sarr?

 

Yes Helmet would be fine.

 

So what’s your suggestion? We don’t discuss any incomings or outgoings until the club confirm them?

This Perica deal seems certain to happen - but it’s only been reported by journos and twitter...so must be nonsense right?

As for the bit I’ve put in bold - most of those people have been criticised on here though? Deeney, Giraldi, etc etc. No one is singling out the owner as the sole reason for the mess. However, as owner, he is the one in a position to do something about all the other moving parts that’s were so poor - and he did nothing but sit and watch.

 

Yes £50 odd million. We are owed about £25m from transfers, but....................

"Amounts owed to Santander are secured by way of promissory note with The Premier League over future transfer fees receivable."

 

With Sarr, we saved £4.5m on going down. I wouldn't put it past Gino to purposely get relegated so he didn't have to play that (joke).

Sure, we'll owe money on transfers, but we'll be receiving money on transfers too. Everton will be still paying us for Richarlison for example. It all depends on the net balance.

 

What a pickle. They should have signed a decent centre half then. That'll teach them.

 

The net balance is about -£25m. Or rather was at the end of 18/19.

 

We've already borrowed against the incoming transfers owed unfortunately.

 

If someone tweeted that QSF was coming back or Pearson was going to be sacked with two games to I would've critically assessed it and said they were crazy. Yet that was reality.

Let people get bothered and worked up by what they want, it's a forum, what's it to you? Weird thing to be so passionate about.

 

not really, always have been passionate about fake news and misinformation in all spheres. Social media is the biggest and most irresponsible spreader of such news. Until such a time when we hold journalists to account, they will continue to be allowed to create clickbait headlines that generate hate, hysteria and fear. Tweets about football might appear meaningless but it’s all part of a wider problem with society and the way we consume media.

anyway I’ve said my piece.

 

There is discussing rumours and then there are the constant OTT manic depressive ‘it’s all going to be total s****, we’re f****** rancid, Gino is a ****’ hysteria posted ad infinitum based on nothing more than the tweets of total strangers. Why would you give a total stranger control of your emotions?

 

To be fair though, that’s only a handful of posters though - it’s being spoken about as if anyone who debates rumours are totally gullible.

 

Then, in the politest way possible, I’d suggest the ‘transfers’ section of this forum might not be for you? As it’s main point for existing is to debate and discuss rumour etc...

 

Yep. I don’t think we’ve seen anything yet. The market for footballers is going to be very depressed. The notion that Barca can’t afford to buy a full back from WFC should send shivers through the board rooms of every club with a debt i.e. every club. It all feels a bit ITV Digital.

We are at that point in a game of monopoly when you start mortgaging properties. In the football world that’s shipping out your best players on loan. The club must be absolutely desperate to sell Doucoure, Estupinan, anyone but are doing their best not to show it.