All those Czechs in the Sudatenland weren't whiter than white you know! In a way, the Poles had it coming! And not all stormtroopers were evil! Spare a thought for those dead Stuka pilots and their families!
I can think of 31.5 billion reasons for @Clive_ofthe_Kremlin's support of Russia, from wiki: EDIT: As I was typing this R4 had a report from Bucha...
Very good (and longish) Spiegel article looking at the 'Russian' (I would say it's more Muscovy - a capital city is very different to the rest of the country) mindset: A very good bit from human right activist Marina Livtinovich proving that "what comes around goes around" as during the Stalinist deportations the 'standard' sentence was 25 years for 'anti-Soviet behavior' (known as a 'bluey' after the 25 rouble note) and prisoners were usually greeted by their fellow inmates in the gulag with the heart-warming homily of "Don't worry - the first 10 years are the hardest":
I don't doubt for a moment that the Russian media is just as bad as the British. Unfortunately I'm unable to check as RT has been censored. We're not allowed to see. We're not able to hear the other side of the argument. I'm doubtful though whether the Russian media would have the chutzpah to put on a segment where they all scratched their chins and declared just how fair and balanced their coverage is, like the BBC did, Of course, the average Russian is not a soldier. Would you feel offended if an Afghani or Iraqi say, felt hatred towards you as a Brit because you are "part of an invading force of another sovereign state? I'm not so sure how educated those shaved-headed military types are really. From any country. And of course they're thoroughly indoctrinated and have their heads filled with patriotic nonsense. I saw a documentary about Iraq recently and they were interviewing US soldiers who were saying how they were dehumanised during their training. Instead of replying 'yes' to an order they had to shout 'KILL!!!' as loud as they could in response. I wouldn't think at the time they're doing it, they question it in the least, but maybe years later, like the US soldiers from Vietnam, Iraq etc. they start questioning themselves about the terrible things they've done to their fellow human beings. All a bit late by then of course. How do you feel about British WW2 pilots who flattened Dresden and caused a whirlwind firestorm that raged through the historical city killing thousands upon thousands? Of course Germany was pretty much defeated anyway by then. What about the US nuclear bombers of Hiroshima, when Japan was also on the verge of defeat? Would you expect these pilots to turn round to those fine politicians and generals who give the orders and say "hang on a minute, this is all a bit questionable isn't it?" Another aspect of the propaganda we receive is that our military only use the very finest pinpoint accurate, laser-guided, smart weapons that only take out only and exclusively military targets. Never any civilians or families or anything hurt by our 'bunker busters' and white phosphorous etc. Utter and complete nonsense of course. You bomb cities, you kill women, children. babies, old people, pregnant women and all the rest. You'd have to be a bit simple to believe otherwise.
Yes, I suppose it must seem a bit weird to many. The propaganda has been so strong. For questioning whether things are quite as black and white and clear cut and 'good against evil' as they're presented by our media, I have been regularly declared a 'Putin-lover' and that I love Russia and all the rest of the nonsense. I have absolutely no sympathy for Russia whatsoever and I'm very much against war and instigating war and big, powerful countries invading smaller ones (for obvious reasons). I'd disagree for the reasons I've laid out before. Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't heard one single word said against the wunnerful, wunnerful, freedom-loving, pure, good, defiant, cheeky and valiant Ukrainians. Nor one favourable word about the evil-hearted, cruel and barbaric Russians. Absolutely no recognition that things tend to be shades of grey rather than absolutes. Everything I've seen has been presented entirely from a Ukrainian point of view. Yes, that's the storyline that's been decided upon and which has been presented continually from every single different possible angle. Ukrainians good and brave and valiant. Russians evil, cruel, barbaric, incompetent etc etc. Must have missed that bit. The only time I've heard Russian statements quoted has been in 2 seconds right at the very end of the bulletin after 15 minutes of hearing the Ukrainian point of view and extensive interviews. And then it's presented in a tone where Rupert Wingfield-Smithers or whoever it is who's presenting it, seems to be struggling to stop himself saying "Tsssk!" at the end. I wonder whether the west's 'resolution' as you call it has not been a big cause of these problems - as much as Russia's invasion. I am sincerely anti-war. I despair every time it's announced that more and more billions of pounds worth of super weapons have been sent by the west to Ukraine in order to 'help'. Like trying to put out a bonfire by pouring petrol on it. We could have a very long discussion on the nature of "democracy" and "liberty", but really I would say that what we have here is more of a plutocracy. The super rich living and powerful living of the backs of us poor. I get a fairly meaningless vote every 5 years by way of 'democracy'. Look at the current state of affairs where a few thousand nutty right-wing pensioners and swivel-eyed loons are choosing our next leader for us. I have very little to no say, either nationally, locally in the community or in my workplace. All of that is dictated for me by the rich and powerful. They decide how things will be. In my view, "liberty" in pretty much any country lasts for as long as you don't make problems or cause a threat to those holding power. As soon as you do, you're either looking out from behind bars or have to flee into exile. Rather than 'defending' that system, I'd rather they stopped promoting wars and cut my electric and gas bills.
You are aware that our brave boys also bomb civilians and housing estates, right? Will you be making this point at the next 'help for heroes' street collection or remembrance parade? Letting off bombs, especially dropping them on cities from 30,000 feet causes the deaths of innocent civilians. Men, women and children. That much is blindingly obvious. I don't really care who 'wins' or 'loses'. As with Vietnam, the real outcome doesn't become obvious until many decades afterwards anyway. Who 'won' in Afghanistan or Iraq? Where we are in agreement is that lives are indeed squandered and ruined by war. That is why they shouldn't do it any more. Any of them. Haven't really looked into the justifications for it. I'm sure both sides have their own excuses. Not interested. Just stop it. Agree completely. Yes. Peace. That's what we want. Disband the military and let's get on with tackling the problems facing the human race that Mike mentioned - climate change, hunger, disease etc etc Good to hear at least a recognition of propaganda and hypocrisy on both sides. Very, very few will admit to that. Whether one is more to blame than the other, I really don't know. Similarly I'm not sure ordinary people in 'satellite countries' would be willing to suffer and die to help Ukrainians on the question of who their rulers are. Personally I'd be more interested in having rulers who can sort out a roof, a school, a doctor, sewerage, clean water and so on. Not really bothered where they were born. They all seem as bad as each other when it comes to that.
You slippery eel @Clive_ofthe_Kremlin I specifically mentioned educated aviators: And you retort with:
Yes, Russia has been repairing relations with Cuba recently and obviously we're very glad indeed to have their support when facing the cruel economic blockade from the monster to the north. I say 'repairing' because there was very little sympathy indeed for Russia after the USSR abandoned Cuba overnight in 1991 and caused a terrible economic crisis that saw imports and GDP drop like a stone and the average Cuban lose 8kg in weight! You are probably not aware (because it was completely ignored by the media here), but recently there was a lightning strike on a massive oil storage tank at Matanzas. The fire then spread to other tanks and four of them exploded. 17 firefighters were incinerated, many of them young men doing their national service. They couldn't even identify their remains through DNA they were so badly burned. The island is already suffering power cuts because of a lack of oil and overdue maintenance and dilapidated equipment at the power stations. This is in the height of summer, with Caribbean heat. Dengue fever is rife and without fans at night, there is nothing to keep away the mosquitos. Obviously the disaster and the loss of the stored oil plus the storage tanks made things much, much worse still. Cuba appealed for international assistance. Mexico sent 45,000 litres of firefighting foam in 16 flights, as well as firefighters and equipment. Venezuela sent firefighters and technicians, as well as 20 tons of foam and other chemicals. Russia sent tankers loaded with oil. We're extremely grateful for the humanitarian assistance from those countries. The USA, on the other hand, with all its resources and capabilities just 90 miles away, offered "phone consultations". The U.S. Embassy in Havana offered "condolences" and stated on day four of the blazing fire that they were “carefully watching the situation”
I agree with your first point. That’s why I protested against the Iraq War. Much of the conduct of that war was obscene a shame on us and our allies; families wiped out, children maimed and disabled, people brutalised, a legacy of toxic pollution that will continue to harm the population and its infants for decades. These are inevitable consequences of imperial invasion and so the threshold must be exceedingly high before any use of force. That threshold was not met by the invasion of Iraq. Similarly, I cannot see how that threshold has been met by Russia. It has been equally cruel and the targeting of working class areas is evident. Block after block of residential housing destroyed. Widespread execution of civilians, rape, torture, organised looting. Why wouldn’t we oppose that? When it was not necessary by the same rule of thumb as Iraq? You want the war stopped. Only the Russians can stop this by withdrawing. The Ukranians can only stop it by winning or submitting to rule by their neighbours, with the brutality that will ensue. There is intense hatred displayed towards Ukranians, even on mainstream Russian TV. ‘Kill them all’. Occupation would be a fearful prospect. Without doubt, Ukraine has its bad people, who commit their own atrocities. The Ukrainian Government will tell lies to try to outwit its enemy and break its resolve. The Western media will pass on some of those lies, amplifying even applauding them. That’s war. But there are no good options here apart from ceasefire and withdrawal by Russia.
Moment of silence for Ravil Maganov, who seems to have been suicided suddenly and unexpectedly fallen out of a window and died. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62750584
Just watched the 10 o'clock BBC news which has a 'special report' on the ongoing war. We learn that the Russians are 'vicious' and are suspected of using horrific white phosphorous bombs. "What they can't capture, they burn" sighs the reporter. I don't know for sure if they did use that horror weapon, but it wouldn't surprise me. After all I it's been used extensively in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Gaza, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc etc However on those occasions there was no time to mention whether those letting off the bombs were 'vicious' or not. We didn't find out whether they were burning what they couldn't capture. Please understand I am NOT trying to justify anyone using such awful weapons. I am just trying to point out the propaganda and hypocrisy. "Thank-you Tarquin for that analysis" said the news presenter. Yeah thanks. Even though we didn't ask to hear what you think about the news, we just wanted to hear it read out.
Immediately redeploy ALL of the world's military personnel to dancing duties. That would help things immensely.
ISTR that the Jockanese regiments have trained dancers (chosen from the ranks) who actually compete at the highest levels.
I don’t believe it’s the role of the news to say ‘this happened, but we did something equally bad’. Its role is to say we did something bad when we were doing it. That it does not do that is the failure. This war has been conducted with extreme viciousness by both sides, but only within the borders of one Country, Ukraine. Within that Country, Russia has unleashed an impoverished, largely minority ethnic, working class on the neighbouring working class. It’s the absolute antithesis of Marxism which requires workers, on a first principle not to injure each other. Those Russian troops have died miserably in their tens of thousands. The Russian POV is all over the internet. Why do we need to hear Russia Today’s view? It’s simply a mouthpiece for Putin’s regime, which is forever damned by its repression and murder of dissenting voices. The attempted assassination of the Skripals in Salisbury resulted in the killing of an ordinary working class British woman. The Russian State media laughed at it, at her. We don’t need to hear its view.
I think it's the role of the news to, well, tell the news. Not to add their commentary on it, which is what they do regularly. For example the "vicious" comment I mentioned or the "what they can't capture they burn" one. Those for me are similar to the "wise and peaceful chieftan" comment on the old footage I posted. I just want the news - not their thoughts on it. I don't agree that we don't need to hear Russia's point of view. If you're going to be informed on a particular subject then you need to hear both sides of an argument. If there was a dispute between two people, you surely wouldn't suggest listening to only one side and making your mind up from what they said. To say "I don't need to hear the other person's point of view" is a bit disingenuous in my opinion. Russia's POV may be on the internet, but the West's point of view is on the telly and in yer face. To censor RT is wrong I think.
I tend to agree with this. I remember having a similar discussion with ZZ a while back about the BBC's coverage of the EU. He resented Katya Adler reporting what EU countries and EU officials POVs as he considered it biased. I think news programmes should report each sides views and perhaps include expert analysis of what those views actually mean. I don't think it is right for the reporters or anchors to add their own editorials or opinions, especially if it's not made clear to the viewers that they are not reporting actual facts but are giving their own personal interpretation. Unfortunately many news outlets having given up on even the pretence of being unbiased. The BBC should avoid falling into the same trap as their reputation as being impartial and trustworthy is what has made them the go to news source around the world for decades.
You need to hear the POV of honest parties, whether you agree with them or not. You don’t, however, need to balance every anti-racist with a racist or every scientist with a climate change denying conspiraloon. An independent Russian news source would be great, but there is no such thing. RT simply indulges in obvious *********ry.
The BBC News is 'hampered' (openly admitted by all who work in it) by having "2sidesism" imposed on it by the government (something Emily Maitlis recently announced to the surprise of absolutely no one) in the name of 'impartiality' and to ensure that the Beeb only 'reported' the news. Early on in the 2nd invasion it readily became apparent that the all the Russian apologists spokespeople were spouting such utter shyte about "...liberating the oppressed Ukrainian people from their Nazi leadership..." which was then re-broadcast on Russian outlets and re-packaged as the British media fully supporting the Russian 'liberation' of Ukraine. This was amplified by RT 'reports' being shown on Russian TV as 'proof' of the rightness of their invasion. RT wasn't and isn't used as a channel to propagate the Russian viewpoint in the UK - it's nearly a flawed mirror that the obscene Russian leadership can hold up to the Russian population and say "...see they are saying the same as us in Britain..." There is no pluralism, whatsoever, in broadcast media in Russian. All 'independent' broadcast media has gone. Print media is the last bastion of free speech and opinion but even that's under extreme pressure to conform to the 'official' opinion. But we have that with 2sideism on the BBC - the policy that's lead to Brexit (the will poison our society and politics for decades) - no nuance in understanding, no explanation or informing on what it would entail for our countries' futures just: here's two opinions choose. That stopped RT broadcasting because it breached our rules in impartiality in broadcasting news. It wasn't censored.
Very interesting thread: https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1535582101621420032 Interesting that they seem to have a bee in their bonnet about the UK. At lot of the Nazis propaganda for the home market obsessed on GB and the, then, Empire to the point that even when the war was lost it was extolling the Germans to fight on as it would hurt Britain and her Empire...
A good example of a rubbish BBC news agenda on the 2200 news last night. The headlines: 1. Main Item - The funeral has taken place in Moscow of Gorbachev. Thousands of people have attended, but NOT Vladimir Putin, who has claimed to be "too busy" (said sneeringly). Film of adoring mourners carrying photos of Gorby and walking through streets. 2. England's football women have qualified for the World Cup! (Film of fruity lady players celebrating) 3. Serena Williams has retired from playing tennis. (Film of fruity tennis player walking around on court with tennis raquet) And that's it. Now over to our Moscow correspondent Rupert Wingbat-Prepschool for a lengthy report on the funeral and the despicable Putin's failure to attend along with 'analysis' of just how evil that makes him and how he's such a liar about being busy and so on. Well I didn't watch it all, I couldn't stand such utter nonsense. So there's your news. We already knew days ago that Gorbachev had died. It had already been reported extensively with plenty of 'analysis' about what a hero he was for ending the cold War. A little odd, because previously we'd always been told that glorious President Ronald Reagan single handedly 'won' the cold War by 'defeating' the evil USSR (note how honorific titles and forenames are always used for those we like - Lady Thatcher, good old Boris Johnson, Sir this and Lord that - whereas enemies only get their surname used - Putin, Castro, Scargill, Corbyn etc). I would suggest that the fact his funeral had taken place was not worthy of being lead item on the news. It merited being a minor item way down the list. I would further suggest that in the normal course of things it probably would have been, but here was a chance to badmouth Putin which couldn't be resisted. No doubt Rupert and the boys in Moscow had plenty to say on the subject, but as I say, I turned it off. Items 2 and 3 about football and tennis games (games remember) also didn't merit being headline items. They should have been in the sports section at the end. Meanwhile, there was no time to mention, for example, the ongoing disaster with catastrophic floods in Pakistan. Rupert and the boys were not in Islamabad to show us Film of the suffering. There was no 'analysis' of our government's pathetic "up to" £15m of aid that had been sent - less than WFC paid for Andre Gray and amounting to around 45p per person affected in out former colony. No, no. Man doesn't go to funeral is way more important than that. Oh and the football and tennis. Nor is there room for any other items about anything else going on around the world. Just absolute bollovks and propaganda really.
Liked for ‘Rupert Wingbat-Prepschool’ alone. The BBC’s news coverage has deteriorated under the Tory Governance. It is timid and agenda following. There are still some great journalists and good people working behind the scenes, but it is a struggle. Labour needs to undo this mess in Government, remove the Tory plants and ensure complete independence going forward.
Yes, there used to be good, honest and dedicated journalists at the BBC. John Simpson is a prime example. I read a couple of his books too. He was a proper journalist who reported the news. I can't think of a single one now who deserves the least bit of respect. More than journalists, they are just spokespeople for the government. I think channels such as Al Jazeera and even CNN provide much better news coverage than that of the BBC.
As bad as some are, they don’t come close to how bad some of the ‘independent’, ‘anti-imperialist’ journalists have been. They should be free to say anything in pursuit of the truth, but their adherence to US bad, everything else must be good, leads them to deny war crimes, agree with the extermination of tens of thousands and dispersing of millions of others on the shifting bases of ‘Nazis’ or ‘Biolabs’ or whatever straw they can grasp. They are mostly based in the West, privileged spectators, completely dismissive of the non-Russian, Eastern European point of view. Thankfully, fewer and fewer of these patronising crackpots claim allegiance to the left. See Grayzone, Max Blumenthal, Aaron Mate, Mad Caitlin Johnstone etc, none of whom will ever be troubled by Russia’s, Wagner, neo-Nazi mercenaries at their door. So they can pretend it’s not happening.
I followed the last US presidential election mainly on CNN and since then, when I get bored with Sky News, I often switch to CNN. Haven't watched a BBC News programme in years.
The BBC really hasn't got the hang of this "State TV" malarkey: https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1566083506417160192
https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/status/1566422454087680004 The bottom left patch says "Hello I'm a Russian Occupier!"
Why do people accept and repeat what the noospapers tell them if it suits their political beliefs but derise the same outlet if it goes against what they believe to be true?
Seems very much like the Russian lines are in disarray in the north east around Kharkiv. In the space of 72 hours the Ukrainians have recovered large swathes of territory and if they can hold what they’ve got they’re well situated to strike Russian supply lines deep into Donbas.
It appears there is significant success on two fronts with the UA advancing towards Melitopol. As that is significantly in advance of Kherson, Russian forces could be further isolated there. No one will be going on holiday to Crimea, that’s for sure.
IAEA Director General latest statement on dangerous conditions at Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Plant. Appears that all power to the plant has been cut off and it is now reliant on diesel generators. This means it needs to shut down, so that power can be used for vital safety functions. This means it is only those diesel generators away from a serious incident. https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/sta...-at-ukraines-zaporizhzhya-nuclear-power-plant
Massive gains for Ukraine overnight and today, with lots of talk of massive numbers of Russians POWs being taken and the Russian MOD reporting its forces are 'withdrawing' from the area around Kharkiv, including Izyum which is a strategically important hub. Hopefully not a pretext for Putin to use a Ukrainain rush towards the border to wave his nukes around.
Just about anything is possible if the Russian Army is routed; the retaliatory use of thermobaric or nuclear weapons, a coup against Putin or even an uprising.
Anyway . GB Ltd has a history of running with the hounds etc And gets away with it because of political dogma . BTW Not guilty M'Lud . Can you plead not guilty with a straight face?
The Russian Army, in six months, from the second strongest in the World, to now, second best in Ukraine.
It's probably wishful thinking, but there are rumours of a coup happening in Moscow. Parts of the city is blocked off and a Moscow district council has allegedly demanded that Putin resign. Even if it's been exaggerated, I'm sure there must be a lot of unrest amongst the Russian military leaders and political classes in Moscow. Hopefully Putin doesn't react by reaching for the nuclear button in desperation.
