So called "Islamic State"

Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by The Voice of Reason, Sep 4, 2014.

  1. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Give aid, work through the UN and other bodies. Support democratic movements. But pour more arms in, or invade as an absolute last resort. And be honest about motivations and methods.
     
  2. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    Don't forget that ISIL's raison d'etre is ridding the "region" of Shi'ite "apostasy", hence their falling out with AQ (who don't believe in Muslim on Muslim violence). I wonder what will happen if ISIL and their rag-bag of ****-ups ("Help me into here - I'm a Jihadist!!!!) and other assorted media-savvy psychos ever clash with Shia Iran - who more than held their own against a sustained attack from Western sponsored Iraq?
     
  3. fan

    fan slow toaster

    Its a tricky question. I think collectively punishing the people he is oppressing though, (and indeed, killing them) is probably (just probably) the wrong answer. (This question is still about trade sanctions right?)
     
  4. Seems to me the Iraqis and Syrians are in the process of fixing the problem themselves.

    We're looking but we're not seeing.

    The Sykes Picot treaty forced together all the different ethnic and religious groups in an unnatural way. Through civil war they are separating into the Sunni, Shia, Kurd, and Alawite nations they should always have been in the first place! Iraq and Syria should cease to exist. The faster we can get them there the quicker there will be peace and the fewer people will die.

    Go in there with bombers like a bull in a china shop is completely and utterly the wrong thing to do.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
  5. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    A rerun of the Iran/Iraq War seems inevitable in some form. Iraqi forces are surely currently regrouping to attack IS and they will get assistance from Iran and from the West.

    It's important that there is diplomacy between the West and Iran otherwise we'll end up half way down the road switching sides to back IS against some perceived threat from Iran.
     
  6. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Wasn't aware of that, but as you can probably guess from the post you quoted, colour me completely unsurprised.
     
  7. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    And Kuwait in itself is an artificial creation from the Sykes-Picot division of the Middle East. To suit our interests at the time. Many of the issues that afflict the region were caused by bumbling bureaucrats and their visions of colonialism and the great game.

    As for the deliberate targetting of Iraqi infrastructure and expecting any apology ? Hardly likely. NATO deliberately bombed Serbian civilian centres and a civilian convoy for which they never offered any apologies, compensation or took anyone to The Hague for trial.

    And as for the extremists ? No matter what we do they will use any excuse to justify their abhorrent actions. They do need to be tackled. The atrocities they have and are committing against innocent civilians particularly the Yazidi, Mesoptamians and indigenous Christians including young children are horrific.

    And this extremism has been going on for decades in a large number of what are termed Islamic countries. Not the sort of violence and terrorism we see now on the news channels but the direct persecution of non Muslims in those countries from Coptics in Egypt to Hindus, Sikhs and Christians and Ahmadiyya in Pakistan. The sort of thing that has been going on for centuries.

    I see some of the 'home' grown fighters want to come home to Britain. They should not be allowed to return back here now that various factions such as al-Nusra and IS and others are starting to fight amongst each other. Quite happy no doubt to kill defenceless civilians from the Allawite and Syriac Christian communities but a different matter when it comes to the likes of IS.

    And amidst the human tragedies and suffering large swathes of irreplaceable historical monuments, treasures and texts have been destroyed be they Persian, Roman, Byzantine or Islamic.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
  8. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Just a decent introduction and conclusion away from being a C grade GCSE essay on the subject.
     
  9. Optimistichornet

    Optimistichornet Penguin Assassin

    War in Syria is an interesting proposition. I believe that there are positives and negatives for getting involved in a conflict. Throughout this essay I shall analyse these pros and cons in turn, before coming to a well informed conclusion.


    I always used to spend half the time writing that paragraph, as I would run out of other things to say.
     
  10. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    In conclusion, analysis of the volatile situation in this region suggests many compelling reasons for the West to become involved in the conflict. However, policy makers must be mindful of the risks I have outlined before embarking on any definitive and possibly irreversible courses of action.
     
  11. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Did anyone hear about how Al Qaeda tried to negotiate the release of the Western hostages from ISIL?

    Who'd have thunk it? What a twist. Those guys are alright after all.
     
  12. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    Interesting to see the Yanks have finally admitted that if this current strategy flops (and it will) they will consider using ground troops.... i.e. We will see Troops fighting IS directly within the next 12 months.

    Am I right in believing IS captured chemical weapons from Syria while we were busy supporting the moderate rebels?
     
  13. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Al Qaeda have slipped way down the list of dangerous mentalists. IS are number one closely followed by the 'Yes' campaign in Scotland.
     
  14. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    Not to mention Farage who is in danger of letting the lefties back in. That's the most serious political threat we face at the moment. Well that and the possibility of Dianne Abbot running for Mayor of London.
     
  15. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Well, we can only pray that the decision makers read this thread, otherwise they may have thought it was entirely risk free.
     
  16. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Was that a 'whoosh' ZZ?
     
  17. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    So in conclusion, the beheading of aid workers can be considered at best a mixed blessing and at worst a nasty business and war is good for absolutely nothing, except for the undertaker.
     
  18. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Crikey, you're really reeling them in today.
     
  19. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Say it again.
     
  20. Optimistichornet

    Optimistichornet Penguin Assassin

    War. Huh.
     
  21. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Good God!
     
  22. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Reports from the impressionable younger members of the Muslim community are that
    War has caused unrest within the younger generation. Induction, then destruction who wants to die.
     
  23. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I would have to take issue with the accepted wisdom that war is good for the undertaker. Undertakers are often small businesses which are likely to thrive best in a stable economy. They have a massive mark up (wooden box for £1000's anyone?) and in war time it's likely that people would cut back on some of the higher end aspects of the service.

    And it might seem as if an endless supply of bodies would be good news for them, but any single Funeral Director will only be able to able to process a finite number of cadavers. They could grow the business, but may find staff hard to come by as these are all abroad getting shot. Even raw materials may be in short supply.

    This is not to mention any personal danger through bombing or risk of conscription to the Undertaker and staff.

    So I'm sorry to say I don't agree with this and these are my thoughts on the matter.

    Thank you.
     
  24. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    You clearly don't read or understand my posts, choosing instead to interpret them to suit your own agenda!

    Bodies from war are often flown back by the military and then, the families concerned may employ a local undertaker in their village or town to care for the body and bury it. For these undertakers, this external business is crucial and can be a huge incentive to people to go into the industry. The fact that you want to strangle this part of the economy is just typical of your politics of greed stance on all commerce!!!!
     
  25. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I take issue with this.

    To which god are you referring when you label him as "good?"

    With the current, apparently "holy" war, it would seem that at least one god involved is clearly not good and is in fact bad. Bad god y'all.
     
  26. HappyHornet24

    HappyHornet24 Crapster Staff Member

    The following is a letter published in today's Independent (sorry - failed to copy link so I pasted the whole letter; if someone can copy link, go ahead & I'll delete this lengthy post). Unfortunately I doubt it'll hold any sway with ISIS/ISIL, the members of which seem to lack a single humane bone in their bodies. But at least it sends the right message from the Muslim community and might help inter-faith relations here.



    Thursday 18 September 2014

    We, the undersigned British Muslim Imams, organisations and individuals, wish to express our horror and revulsion at the senseless murder of David Haines and the threat to the life of our fellow British citizen, Alan Henning.

    Mr Henning was a volunteer who travelled to Syria to help innocent civilians.

    Acts of humanitarianism are an essential element of religious practice for all Muslims, and of course they are just as significant to other people too. Islamic teachings call for charity and selflessness. Most importantly, acts of beneficence do not, and cannot, exclude non-Muslims.

    In Islam, concern for fellow humans and the duty to help everyone is a religious obligation. Anyone undertaking a humanitarian act is paving his or her way to receive help from heaven, should be commended and held in the highest esteem.

    In contrast, the senseless kidnapping, murder and now the despicable threats to Mr Henning at the hands of so-called ‘Muslims’ cannot be justified anywhere in the Quran and the Sunnah (Prophetic traditions).

    The un-Islamic fanatics are not acting as Muslims, but as the Prime Minister has said, they are acting as monsters. They are perpetrating the worst crimes against humanity. This is not Jihad - it is a war against all humanity.

    The Holy Quran says that:

    "Whosoever kills a human being... it is as if killing the entire human race; and whosoever saves a life, saves the entire human race."

    We plead with those holding Alan Henning to see the errors of their ways. To embrace the word of the Quran and accept that what they are now doing constitutes the worst condemnable sin.

    We appeal to them to release Mr Henning immediately. The Quran states that “repentance is not accepted from those who continue to do evil deeds”.

    In the name of the Almighty All Merciful God, we beseech Mr Henning's kidnappers with the words of our Prophet Muhammad - "Show mercy to those on earth, the One in the Heavens will have mercy on you.

    British Muslim communities have done a great deal to speak out over the evils of terrorism over many years. We will continue to do everything within our power to prevent any other young man or woman getting caught up in this poisonous ideology.

    Add your name to the list and show your support by using the #NotInMyName hashtag



    Sheikh Arif Abdulhussain, Director, Al-Mahdi Institute, Birmingham, @AMIOutreach

    Imam Khalid Hussain Abdullah, Lecturer and Imam, KQZ Institute & Masjid Tajdar Madina, Nottingham & Leicester

    Mohammed Afzal, Councillor, Birmingham

    Mufti Fazal Ahmad, Chief imam, Central Mosque, Derby

    Dr Husna Ahmad OBE, CEO, Global One, London

    Akeela Ahmed, London

    Sughra Ahmed, President, Islamic Society of Britain

    Usma Ahmed, Councillor, Birmingham

    Muddassar Ahmed, Patron, Faiths Forum for London

    Shakil Ahmed, Principal, Ayesha Community School, London, @_ACE_School

    Dr Khurshid Ahmed CBE, CEO, Bahu Trust, Birmingham

    Maqsood Ahmed OBE, Director of Community Welfare& Development, Muslim Hands, @maqsoodajmedobe

    Rushanara Ali, MP for Tower Hamlets

    Hafiz Javed Akhtar, Imam, Central Mosque, Manchester

    Salah Yusuf Al-Ansari, Imam, Palmers Green Mosque, London

    Sheikh Mohammed Al-Hilli, Imam, Noor Trust, London

    Abubakar Ali, Chairman, Somali Bravanese Welfare Association, London

    Asif Ali, Imam / Head Teacher, Karimia Institute, Nottingham

    Azhar Ali, County Councillor and Cabinet Member for Health & Wellbeing, Lancashire County Council, @azhar4pendle

    Nawaz Ali, Councillor, Birmingham

    Mahmoud Ali, General Secretary, Hosseinieh Foundation, Bristol, @HosseiniehSahibzada

    Mufti Akhtar Ali, Chief Imam, Sheffield

    Haider Alkhateeb, Manager, Centre for Islamic Shia Studies (CISS), London, @halkhateeb25

    Kerrar Al-Khayat, Trustee and Vice Chairman, My Voice Project, London, @Kerrar_

    Sayed Yousif Al-Khoei, Director, Public Affairs, Al-Khoei Foundation, London

    Haytham Ali Alsahlani, Imam, London

    Abu Sayeed Ameer, Dawatul Islam uk & Eire, Dawatul Islam uk & Eire London

    Mohammed Ali Amla, Vice Chair of Preston Faith Forum, Founder of Global Village, Founder of Christian Muslim Encounters, @mohammedaliamla

    Anjum Anwar MBE, Dialogue Development Officer, Blackburn Cathedral, @AuntyG

    Dr Qari Muhammad Asim, Senior Imam, Makkah Mosque, Leeds, @QariAsim

    Maulana Dr Ather HussainAzhari, Imam, Birmingham

    Mufti Mohammad Yousuf Azhari, Imam, Leicestershire

    Mohammed Azim, Councillor, Birmingham

    Maulana QamaruzzamanAzmi, Secretary General, World Islamic Mission, Manchester

    Kalsoom Bashir, Co-Director, Inspire

    Yahya Birt, Executive Committee, Public Policy and Community Debate, City Circle, London, @ybirt

    Dr Mamadou Bocoum, Director, Interfaith Through The Arts (ITTA), London

    Maulana Syed Fida Bokhari, Imam, Manchester

    Imam Tayeb Mustapha Cham, Chairman, Tayba Foundation

    Makhdoom Ahmad Chishti, Chairperson, Social Unity Foundation of Innovation Trust, Birmingham

    Maulana Hafeezurrahman Chishti, Imam, Leicester

    Irfan Chishti MBE, Imam, Light of Islam Academy, Rochdale @ichishtiM

    Aslam Choudry, Elected Councillor for Dudden Hill Ward, Brent Council, London

    Gulamraza Datoo, Vice President, KSIMC of Birmingham, Birmingham

    Sheikh Fazle Abbas Datoo, Imam /Resident Alim, Wessex Shia Ithna Asheri Jamaat, Portsmouth

    Shaykh Muhammad Amin Evans, Imam

    Mustafa Field, Director, Faiths Forum for London, @mustafafield

    Rabiha Hannan, New Horizons in British Islam

    Hifsa Haroon-Iqbal MBE DL, Chair, Chase Against Crimes of Hate, Stafford, @hhi1

    Dr Mohamed Adam Hassan, Chairman, Somali Youth Forum, London, @Hafiz

    Moulana Shamsul Hoque, Chairman, Council of Mosques - Tower Hamlets, London

    Mahmood Hussain, Councillor and Former Lord Mayor of Birmingham

    Dilwar Hussain, New Horizons in British Islam, @DilwarH

    Rizwan Hussain, Chief Executive, Jawaab, London, @JawaabUK

    AKIpaye, Director, Dairatul-Amni, London

    Zafar Iqbal, Councillor, Birmingham

    Mohammed Iqbal, Councillor, Leader of the Labour Group, Pendle Borough Council, Lancashire

    Ali Jaffri, Trustee, Idara-e-Jaaferiya, Mosque and Community Centre, London, @mralijaffri

    ‎Dr Husein Jiwa, President, The Council of European Jamaats, London, @CoEJ

    Belgacem Kahlalech, Director, WAMY UK, London

    Mohammedraza Kanji, Secretary, Wessex Jamaaat, Al Mahdi Centre, Fareham

    Dr Majid Katme, Ex-President, Islamic Medical Association/UK, London

    Nagina Kauser, Councillor, Birmingham

    Zahra Kazmi, Co-Founder, Save Muslim Heritage, High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire

    Changese Khan, Councillor, London

    Mariam Khan, Councillor, Birmingham

    Hamzah Khan, Manager, Al-Mustafa Trust, Bradford, @almustafacentre

    Mohammed Khan, Chair, Council of Bristol Mosque, Bristol

    Sara Khan, Co-Director, Inspire

    Sadiq Khan, Shadow Justice Sectretary

    M Afzal Khan CBE, MEP, Manchester, @akhanmep

    Imam Tahir Mahmood Kiani, Lecturer, Birmingham, @tmkiani

    Farzana Kosar, General Secretary, Centre for Spirituality & Cultural Advancement, Feltham, @csca_uk

    Riyaz Laher, Chair, FMO Leicestershire, Leicester, @FMO_Leics

    Maualana Safraz Madni, Imam and Chairman, Mosques & Imams National Advisory Board, Birmingham

    Majid Mahmood, Councillor, Birmingham

    Khalid Mahmood

    Shabana Mahmood, MP, Birmingham

    Mufti Helal Mahmood, Coordinator, Oldham Mosques Council, Oldham

    Imran Malik, General Secretary, Blackheath Jamia Mosque Trust, Blackheath

    Shaz Manir, CEO, Amirah foundation, Birmingham, @directoramirah

    Salim Mbaruk, Chair, Bilal Education, London

    Dr Asghar Moledina, President, The World Federation of KSIMC, London, @wfksimc

    Ghulam Moyhuddin, Head Imam, Ashton Central Mosque, Ashton

    Fiyaz Mughal, Director, Faith Matters and the TELL MAMA anti-Muslim Monitoring Project, London

    Zubaiar Muhammadi, Afghan Isamic Culture Centre

    Gul Muhammed, Imam and Senior lecturer, Jamia al Karam, Retford

    Maulana Farooq Mulla, Imam, Leicester

    Aamer Naeem, Editor in Chief, British Muslim TV, Yorkshire

    Suleman Nagdi MBE, Public Relations Officer, Federation of Muslim Organisations, @fmo_leics

    Maulana Syed AbbasNaqvi, Imam

    Maulana Syed Najm ul HasanNaqvi, Imam, Manchester

    Ifath Nawaz, FFL Council Member, Faiths Forum for London

    Maulana Farogul Qaadri, Imam, Glasgow

    Maulana Farogh Ahmed Qadri, Imam, Glasgow

    Qazi Abdul Latif Qadri, Chief Imam, Central Aylesbuy, Aylesbury

    Ali Qureshi, Secretary General, Union of Muslim Organisations UK&EIRE

    Murad Qureshi, London Assembly Member

    Yasmin Qureshi, MP for Bolton South East

    Fazal Rahim, Coordinator, Oldham Interfaith Forum, Oldham

    Ayub Rashid, Imam and Chaplain, Muslim Community of Essex

    Syed Ali Abbas Razawi, Imam and International Speaker, Majlis Ulema-e-Shia, London

    Maulana Shahid Raza, founder trustee of the British Muslim Forum, and Senior Imam, Leicester Central Mosque, Leicester

    Maha Rida, Social Affairs officer, Al-Kawther, Al-Kawther, London

    Ali Raza Rizvi, President, Majlis Ulama-e-Shia, London

    Allama Pir Syed Zahid Hussain Shah Rizvi, Jamia Mosque, Birmingham

    Maulana Syed Hassan Abbas Rizvi, Imam & Finance Officer, Majlis Ulema-e-Shia, London

    Asif Sadiq, President, National Association of Muslim Police, @asifsadiq

    Raheed Salam, All Faiths and None, London, @raheedsalam

    Mufti Ghulam Sarwar, Senior Imam, Hanfia Mosque and Educational Institute, Huddersfield

    Mufti Imran Sarwar, Secretary, Kirklees Imams & Mosques Advisory Board (KIMAB), Kirklees

    Dr. Shuja Shafi, Secretary General, Muslim Council of Britain

    Mohammed Shafiq, Chief executive, Ramadhan Foundation, @mshafiquk

    Cllr Chauhdry Shafique MBE, Chairman, Council for Christian Muslim Relations, High Wycombe, Bucks

    Amjad Shah, General Secretary, Idaara Maarif-e-Islam, Birmingham

    Shafique Shah, Lord Mayor of Birmingham, Birmingham

    Maulana Syed Sultan Shah, Imam, Leicester

    Ismael Lea South, Director, The Salam Project, London & Manchester, @thesalamproject

    Amir Taki, Director & Executive Producer, Ahlulbayt TV, London, @AmirTaki

    Sh Talat, Board of trustee, MCEC, London

    Imam Ghulam Rasool Tipton, Principal, Hazrat Sultan Bahu Trust Sandwell & executive member of MINAB, Sandwell, @grashgr

    Waseem Zaffar, Councillor, Birmingham

    Allama Hafiz Muhammad Sadiq Zia, Jamaia Masjid, Birmingham

    Maulana Dr Mohammad Rashid Zia, Imam, London

    Maulana Azmat Abbas Zohairi, Imam, Majlis Ulema-e-Shia, Burnley

    Add your name to the list and show your support by using the #NotInMyName hashtag
     
  27. Spud

    Spud Squad Player


    And pray to the God
    Whose name spelled backwards is dog
    Not for one race
    One creed, one world
    But for money
    Effective, absurd

    I need a lie down.
     
  28. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Most of us on this board would seek to combine support for small business with a genuine desire for peace. You certainly have not read my posts or you would have understood this and sent me a written letter of apology and maybe some chocolates.

    Moog clearly believes that starting a war with the resultant thousands of casualties is a small price to pay to prop up one small sector of the economy, a sector he probably owns shares in. This is typical of his kind of jealous, 'I'm all right jack', 'Billy Britain' type of attitude. No wonder the Scots want out.

    You Sir can 'do one'.
     
  29. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    This anti-mortician agenda is clearly reminiscent of the mass graves of your much loved Chinese and Russian dictators. It's clear what Moose would prefer and a proper burial by a slightly sinister man with a morbid career is not on his agenda!
     
  30. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    How typical of the typical Capitalist, Nazi Facist, Facist Nazi moog that his preference is for mass murder by proxy sweetened with the promise of an individual cosy funeral service performed by obsequious lackeys.

    You sir, I repeat, can just about do one.
     
  31. Godfather

    Godfather bricklayer extraordinaire

    "We as a world" .... just **** off!

    It is an Arab problem and calls for Arab solutions ... WE should request neighbouring countries to act and nothing more. Seriously our involvement brings only further hatred and further harm. WE as a world should not be there, it isn't our fight!
     
  32. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I agree that intervention may be the road to hell. I don't agree though that it is just an 'Arab' problem. The Kurds are not Arabs, neither are the Persians. There are many different sects and tribes. Many involved in IS are Asian or African and from the UK and elsewhere.

    And anyway should the world not care if Arab kills innocent uninvolved other Arab?

    What we can do without making it worse is the question.
     
  33. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn First Team

    The Kurds are lemons.
     
  34. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Send in the undertakers. But yes, I agree with this. We may not agree on the solution (not that I pretend to know what that is - only London cabbies have that secret with their "bomb the lot of 'em" logic) but the principle is correct.

    I don't know whether boots on ground, bombing, arming one group etc. are going to be right, but I also don't believe we can just do nothing or turn a blind eye because they are not "our people."

    Although, there are plenty of cases where we do just that, namely in any country where the people are black, and there is no oil.
     
  35. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    You can jog right on with your "put everyone's corpse into a furnace with no respect for the grieving families" rhetoric. It's the rhetoric of hate.
     

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