So called "Islamic State"

What are your feelings on British and other countries citizens who are currently fighting on behalf of the so called "Islamic State"?

It is my opinion that Britain and any other country should have the right to remove their rights to citizenship. However, it is currently illegal to make someone stateless, but what about good old fashioned "Banishment" could that not be enforced? Or as I S claim to be a state they should be declared citizens of the so called "Islamic State"?

What are your opinions on this?

 

Treason is still a crime isn't it?

 

If they go out there to intentionally commit cold blooded murder then they shouldn't be welcomed back.

Problem is, as was mentioned by a Professor, many of them go there expecting something else but when they see the nature of the crimes they return wanting nothing to do with it, do we ban them too? It's a blurred line.

But definetly if there's no doubting their intention then remove their passport.

Heard David Cameron propose a law which means if you have dual nationality you're allowed to be kicked out of England. I have a Pakistani nationality card because that's the easiest way to visit my family if I need to but does that mean I should give that up on the chance a political war breaks out there? If I visit Pakistan to see my family whilst there's terrorist crimes happening will I be welcomed back?

 

In law I don't think there is much we can do. We don't have jurisdiction over crimes committed in another country and we can't tell someone they are no longer British.

If they do not hold a British passport they should be deported immediately and refused entry thereafter. (European citizens can not be prevented entry as I understand it and this is one reason why I feel an exit from Europe is required unless this can be changed) Their Immediate families if also not on a British passport should have their right to stay re-assessed.

It should be made a criminal offence for a British passport holder to join up and fight for a non British sanctioned military force. As metioned above it could well be considered treason, assuming this is not already covered by the terrorism act.
British citizens breaking this law should then be tried and punished accordingly under UK Law.

 

What do you define as "something" else?

The way I see it the government should set up a scheme, where people travelling to these countries need to declare that they are doing so, and need to disclose their whereabouts and intentions - for example, if they are truly visiting family - there could be history of such travel. Another report I saw was someones son has been found to join IS forces, however their parents stated they went there to help and do charity work. Having such a scheme should hopefully enable them to track if they are working for charities and their whereabouts, as well as having a log of who has traveled so you at least get a shortlist of potential suspects (though of course innocent until proven to be guilty). This may seem harsh on those that genuinely travel to see families, but I would understand it if I were one of them as I would have nothing to hide.

Anyone found to have traveled without informing the authorities should be shot either for stupidity or for war crimes.

 

Actually we do. Murder committed by a British subject abroad is able to be prosecuted here. Likewise terrorism, some types of fraud and bribery. And war crimes can be prosecuted here also - even if all the participants and location have no links to the UK.

 

Good to know thanks UEA. I suppose the problem is proving it of course.

 

If the authorities can remove the passports of suspected/convicted British football hooligans to stop them causing trouble overseas, what's the difference when dealing with suspected/convicted British terrorists?

 

RE Cude:

Well the guy on BBC Breakfast was saying that many of the young men go thinking their freedom fighting etc but when they see the actual barbaric nature of the crimes they want to return because it's what they went for.

It's natural to doubt that as any normal person would watch the news and see exactly what the basta*ds stand for but I think there is some who genuinely don't expect what they see.

 

Probably none. It says very clearly on the passport that it remains the property of the state not the individual.

 

Arresting Football Hooligans makes goods press and are easy arrests, arresting Terrorists and murderers the liberal do gooders human rights guardian brigade show their heads!

That fight between Watford Bolton fan(Not innocent bystanders) the police could not done more to get convictions. If that fight had happened in the hight street that saturday night nothing would have been done about it

 

I'm against this.

 

I still don't see it Squibba I'm afraid. It's known what their intentions are (and that's not just in the British Media, they have shown their own videos), if people want to have a "closer look" at what's going on, let them, but don't be expected to be welcomed home.

IS have stated their intentions to carry out attacks against the West/Britain (I'm sure there has been British Citizens on video saying that they will bring the fight to our country as well) if people are "interested" to know what this organisation is about let them, but warn them and show them that they are no longer welcome here.

Sounds harsh, but it's about time this country grew a pair.

 

They already know the identity of the person responsible for the recent beheadings - Abdel-Majed Abdel Bary..rap singer (AKA Jinn Matic) from west London. I guess we will find out if/when he tries to return home.

 

That's according to the media anyway.

 

Not completely relevant to the main post but an interesting article from 2012 - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/18/why-bashar-al-assad-needs-terrorism

Even if their passports are taken away, do you really think they don't have access to fake passports and alternative means of making their way over here? If they really wanted to get into Britain i'm sure they'd find a way. I guess the damage has already been done when we didn't take the threat seriously which allowed several hundred 'Jihadists' to return without much opposition - I can't imagine it being easy to return now via air travel.

 

Yeah they could find a way but taking away their passports makes it a lot harder let's be honest.

I love the new term Jihadists by the way. Nearly as good as Islamist.

 

Ought we try them for being an accessory to war crimes? We can't prove they took part in murder or terrorism because we don't have the intelligence. Perhaps create a registry of people declaring when they go over and all those who go without declaring be assumed to joining IS and therefore are an accessory to war crimes.

 

The Terrorism Act is massive in its scope. Pretty much anything they do will be captured by it in some way.

 

War is brutal so not sure what they're expecting to see. Maybe they've spent too long playing Call of Duty.

 

I think Squibba's point is that a lot of those travelling over were misled. It's often easy to forget the social pressures that living in a self-contained community can produce.

The prospective recruits (read: vulnerable disaffected kids) are fed a bunch of BS by the extremist recruiters. They're told how the Western media distorts everything and lies. The REAL truth is different, as the recruiter will explain...and the brainwashing begins.

I don't have a hard time believing that sort of thing happens because I know it happens over here, just with a different population demographic (white American-standard right wingers). There are groups of people over here who are thoroughly convinced their government is out to get them, and they believe nothing coming from major media outlets. We also used a similar approach during the First World War, with the whole "dulce et decorum est" crap. The kids signed up for glory and got the trenches; oldest trick in the book. To an extent it still goes on today with military recruitment, especially in the US.

Undoubtedly there are a number of utter psychopaths who know exactly what they're getting into, of course. I think Squibba is correct when he says that some of those going over find something very different to what they were lead to believe they would find, though. Extremism grooming isn't a switch that is simply tripped immediately; it happens over time.

 

Thank you for wording it properly for me Arakel haha.

It's not a great excuse but the younger men are led to believe it's a religious battle and that their fighting for good reasons. When they get there everything ISIS stands for contradicts Islam itself.

They try to replicate very successful leaders from hundreds of years ago but in today's world it's just impossible.

By the recreation I don't mean the beheading I mean the Islamic state, at one point years ago Islam was spreading very very quickly round the globe.

 

The psychology behind brainwashing is interesting, I wish I knew more about it. There must be certain factors underneath within the persons personality which allows them to be brainwashed.

The people going to ISIS and then realising it's not for them, end up penniless because they demand they give up all their money to the cause. While leaders live in luxury with gold jewellery etc.

 

i have complete faith that the government will use extra powers and controls in responsible and ethical ways, and that it will definitely only be temporary in nature.

 

All this Isis terror has been devastating for business here in Cameron's cosy Cotswolds.

Isis Estate Agents, Isis Taxis, Isis Tea Rooms, Isis Guided Tours and 101 novelty rock emporiums and floggers of dubious "Oxford University" related tat to gullible tourists have all traded on the Isis name for years.

"“I don’t at all want to belittle the suffering being caused by IS in the Middle East, or the threat they pose here. But I want to remind people that the Isis name is ours and should only be something that resonates very positively” said one peeved trader.

 

I am sure much of what has been said by some posters in this thread, is quite true.

But every time someone says, "I'm not an apologist, as they (Islamic State in this case) are evil, but they do what they do is because, America did this, or Blair did that, or the UK does whatever, the Crusades, etc. It is no different to saying (and excusing) a burglar or mugger because he hasn't got a job.

These kids are potential victims of this brainwashing (or whatever it is), and they see the sorts of comments that even appear on this forum, it gives their recruiters more ammunition and their victims more excuses. It happens on the TV, in the newspapers, every debate on the radio.

There is not an ounce of mitigation for what these horrible people are doing, not an ounce. It doesn't matter who they are. It is pure evil and nothing less. Their actions should be 100% condemned by everybody, including lefties, socialists, do-gooders, anybody that just hates America, etc.

 

My hard line view won't be popular, but I want to see the evil 5hits locked up for life the moment they try and step foot on British soil. No if's, no but's, no trial, if there is the slightest shred of evidence they have taken part even in just supporting ISIS that's it, they have given up the right to be treated as humans.

As for clerics in the uk who incite hatred, take them out to the woods and put a bullet in their head. That's what would happen to a mad dog.

 

oh dear

 

Careful those PETA people will be on to you.

 

What would your proposal be?

 

Certainly don't allow them to continue but trial by media is not the way to go.
We have courts; deport or jail the guilty ones but leave the assassinations to the CIA monsters.

 

I think we have our own monsters too........SAS, MI5, MI6, and probably a few other even more dubious types who are even more clandestine.

 

Hmm, so let's see if I've got all that right.

You want indefinite internment without trial, or any airy-fairy legal procedure or examination of evidence of any kind.

You agree that it would be a great thing to arbitrarily strip people of their citizenship, leaving them stateless, but shake your heads in sorrow that this tyrannical ambition might be frustrated by the international law.

You feel that they are sub-human and ought to be murdered by under-cover para-military death squads.

You delight in the fact that the terrorism act "covers just about anything".


Have any of you ever thought to step back and look at the sort of world you're asking for?

Where anyone thought to be a threat to the state can be murdered on the street without even the slightest pretence at even the slightest nod towards justice.

 

For ISIS.. yes.

see above

see above

see above

I'd say I was asking for a world free from hate filled clerics and their mad sub human murdering follower scum

A world where true muslims can live in peace alongside other muslim creeds and all other religions

No, just the hate filled clerics and their mad sub human murdering follower scum.


If the Nazi's ever came back I'd demand immediate and unconditional extermination of them and their kind. how are ISIS any different to the Nazi's?