Cuban Situation

Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by Clive_ofthe_Kremlin, Jul 30, 2021.

  1. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    OK, I tried not to expose your dishonesty Clive, as I did not want this to descend into personal attacks, because I actually quite like you despite our differences, but as you keep going on about it, I have no choice.

    You have been dishonest in your translation of the supplied documentation, as you did not translate the important information and that alone shows that you can't be trusted to post with integrity on here. You are doing exactly what your communist masters want you to do, hiding the full truth to create uncertainty.

    In column 7 of the list, you will know that most of the prisoners are shown as "El detention" or "in detention" in English.

    But Mr Enrique Mustelier Sosa (along with maybe 10% of the prisoners), is clearly shown as "El desapancion forzada" or "forced disappearance" in English. You tried to hide the truth in the hope that no-one would spot it, Clive. You should be ashamed of yourself.

    For those interested "enforced disappearance" is explained by Amnesty in this article.

    And here is a summary, as explained by Amnesty.

    "Victims of enforced disappearance are people who have literally disappeared; from their loved ones and their community. They go missing when state officials (or someone acting with state consent) grabs them from the street or from their homes and then deny it, or refuse to say where they are. Sometimes disappearances may be committed by armed non-state actors, like armed opposition groups. And it is always a crime under international law.

    These people are often never released and their fate remains unknown. Victims are frequently tortured and many are killed, or live in constant fear of being killed. They know their families have no idea where they are and that there is little chance anyone is coming to help them. Even if they escape death and are eventually released, the physical and psychological scars stay with them."
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
  2. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    I stated clearly that it was a document of your gusanos, in the hope you would then not try to dispute it. Yet still.. bloody hell.

    The circumstances of Mr Mustelier Sosa, as reported elsewhere in the entry, clearly do NOT correspond with the Amnesty definition of 'disappeared' that you have extrapolated onto. We know he is alive. We know where he is. We know he's being processed through the judicial system. They say he was "on operations". Pound to a pinch of shiit he was messing around near that bloody Yankee base again. What a traitor.

    Anyway, you still won't answer my question, you're wriggling like mad and even trying to flatter me. But the question remains. Do you or do you not accept that Mr Mustelier Sosa, your single example of a person you believe to have been 'disappeared', is actually alive and well and his location known?

    Come on, I'm going to keep asking until you answer.
  3. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Blimey, you can't help being dishonest, can you!

    The document was not produced by "gusanos" (which is an ethnically derogatory term that refers to cuban dissidents), it was produced by the UBPD which is an independent humanitarian organisation that searches on behalf of families who have lost contact with loved ones in regions of conflict - worldwide, and not only Cuba.

    You say I'm wriggling, yet you produce a document as proof of him being alive, but when I have pointed out the document merely says that he has disappeared, you imply it can't be trusted. Your hypocrisy would be funny, if not so sad.

    This humanitarian organisation UBPD has chosen to use the expression that Amnesty use and are quite clear about what the definition is. They say that around 10% of that list are "enforced disappeared", and that differentiates them from the other 90%. It is their choice of words, not mine. And that is why you tried to hide the truth.

    Of course, I realise that this would put them on a par with Amnesty who you also discount, but let's be honest and let others decide, rather than lie.

    So, whilst we are at it, maybe you can prove that Mr Sosa, and the other 10% on that list, are actually still alive and are not merely names provide by the authority as still being alive, particularly as visitors are not allowed? He and the others could have been tortured in Guantanimo, or executed, we just don't know, as the UBPD can not find out.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
  4. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    OK, so you're going to adopt a position even further to the right than that of the gusanos. You're going to dig the hole for yourself a little bit deeper and say that you don't believe what everyone says (even his family), that he is in prison in Guantanamo awaiting trial on charges related to his being "on operations". But you know better.

    Honestly, I give up.
  5. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    The UBPD say that he has disappeared, not me. His family have been told he was in Guantanimo, but there is no proof he is still alive and well, as they are not allowed to speak or see him. As I said, he could have been executed or tortured, nobody knows. I'm not digging myself deeper, as I've been able to show how dishonest you have been in your desperation, and to show how the UBPD document you introduced to this discussion shows that he has disappeared.

    But yes, honestly, you should give up because the more independent organisations you rubbish or discount, the more daft you look. Aren't you just a little embarrassed?
  6. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Yeah I suppose he might have been executed or tortured as you say. All this about him being in prison in Guantanamo might all just be a smokescreen. The prosecutor might have laid charges against him also as part of a diversionary tactic, whilst the Cuban government, with the world watching mind, torture and execute him. It's all possible.

    Then of course, little green men might come down from Mars in a spaceship and beam him out of prison. Anything's possible.

    Like I say, really I give up.
  7. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    I bet when the fella starts posting on social media again, or when photos emerged of him, you'll say it could be a Cuban government imposter who's been placed there to cover up his torture and murder.

    There's just nothing I can do, is there?
  8. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    And my point was that just as Cuba may freely choose not to honour capitalist investment or mitigate losses, and I do have some sympathy with their reasons, then they have to accept the consequences of doing so. Just like Cuba feels justified in its actions, the US feels justified in counter measures such as the 'blokade'. Both parties have been wronged, like it or not. Therefore the sanctions the US are taking are as justifiable to the people of the US, as the actions of Cuba were to its people. The sanctions may be encouraged by there being a communist state a few miles off shore, but the reason for them is justifiable regardless of political leanings.

    Regarding a communist state struggling because it is not supported by a capitalist state, that is simply an irony worth pointing out. Which capitalist free trading countries complain that they are failing because communist states will not trade with them? And when you come to your conclusion, consider why thriving countries predominantly employ a capitalist model, including the CCP, albeit so tied up with the state that the word fascism is not an inappropriate one to use when describing the situation in China; similarly so the USA, with the open collusion between big tech and the Biden administration to gag certain opinions, as brazenly described by Biden's press Secretary, in a way that means the government are using commercial industries to perform sanctions it cannot legally take itself.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
  9. Otter

    Otter Gambling industry insider

    You are an Olympic level idiot, it must have taken years of dedication.

    What justification does the US have for the blockade? Not liking their politics isn't a valid reason, the missile crisis was 49 years ago and is unlikely to be repeated, what you have is a state deliberately starving the people of another state, I don't care how they paint it, it's what genocide looks like.

    There is no irony that a communist state trades with a capitalist state, natural resources dictate that to an extent, Cuba is struggling because they are being strangled by their neighbour's actions. Without the blockade Cuba will do well enough to support their population.
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin likes this.
  10. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    If you can't keep it civil when someone disagrees with you, perhaps you should consider not posting on here.

    The US sanctions stem from the privatisation of US owned oil rights without compensation following the revolution. Millions of dollars of private US investment was also dismissed by the Cuban government, and I have repeatedly stated that I sympathise, to some extent, with the Cuban's reasons for this, accepting, as I did in the first post you replied to, that like it or not, it entitled the US to respond.

    I assumed you were aware of this, but obviously not.

    Don't get upset because I disagree with you, please.
  11. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Yes, there is something you can do. You can just stop the daft denials and just admit it, or you can actually produce some evidence that these people are alive and well. Amnesty International, the HRW and the SBPD all say it is happening, yet you deny it, suggesting that they are all making it up, alongside victims families in one gigantic conspiracy. The United Nations has published reports in the last decade describing grave concerns about Cubs in the areas of enforced disappearance, torture, racism, treatment and rights of children. But according to you, they will be making it all up as well.

    You provided a list showing around 10% of the almost 800 people seized by the Cuban authorities in about 2 weeks at the end of last month, that have been declared as "enforced disappeared" by SBPD. I am sure that if the Cuban government actually care about these families, and they are telling the truth, they would publicly prove that these people are safe and well. Let's see this proof.

    And then there isn't just the last few weeks, there are the thousands murdered or "disappeared" since the revolution. The persecution of the LBTQ community, the executions, etc.
  12. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    As far as I am aware, there is no embargo on food or medicines from the US to Cuba. Every other nation and non American businesses can trade in everything except arms, I believe, and can certainly trade food and medicines with Cuba.

    The US say the embargo is about human rights and democracy rather than a simplistic "politics". But I definitely think the embargo should be lifted, not least because it gives the Cuban government a reason to falsely blame everyone else except themselves for the problems they have. In my view the embargo is self defeating.
  13. ST1968

    ST1968 Academy Graduate

    I decided many months ago not to enter any more political debates on this forum or any other social media platform.

    Which make it highly pleasurable for me to read this thread, a thread I have absolutely no knowledge about, or experience on, the subject matter (apologies Clive because clearly it is important).

    I can now read and see the polarised opinions build, and build, and build, from both sides. With the likely fringe players who really know nothing act as if they know it all. With the occasional humorous hand grenade thrown in by several onlookers - bravo to them.

    Clearly ZZ and Clive are passionate men and I applaud you both. I have absolutely no idea which one of you is roughly correct and the other slightly not quite so correct.

    However one thing I can't understand: why has one individual created two profiles just so that one can like the comments made by the other. What is all that about? Clearly there are aspects of social media I still can't comprehend being as old as I am.

    Enjoy everyone,

    PS - if someone can point out all the grammatical errors in my post I would be much obliged. Some of you will be itching to do so already.
    sydney_horn likes this.
  14. ST1968

    ST1968 Academy Graduate

    I personally believe there is nothing wrong with being ignorant. On many subjects I am.

    I also believe there is nothing wrong with being arrogant. Ditto.

    However when arrogant people pontificate on subjects with which they are grossly ignorant then I really don't understand why they do it.
    sydney_horn likes this.
  15. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Already did provide proof, but then you said it was all an elaborate charade, which might have fooled the Miami gusanera, but you knew the real truth. That in fact he was a shape shifter, put there by the Cubans, so they could get on with murdering and torturing the real one. Or something.

    I'm not inclined to repeat the process. As I said, I could have the bloke come up and tap you on the shoulder and you'd still deny it.

    No they don't. The Amnesty and HRW documents you linked simply didn't mention any disappeared or murdered. The SBPD one contradicted itself and so did you - how can a person be 'disappeared' if you know precisely where he is. How can it be unfair if the people are being processed under the law. No actually don't bother answering, because it'll just be something bizarre again.

    No it hasn't. No disappearances, no torture, no "grave concerns" about racism (what a joke!) or the rights of children. Just silly lies again. It's not the UN that's making it up, it's you comrade! Trying to argue with you is like following a drunk driver swerving all over the road and tossing another empty bottle marked 'LIE' out on the road to smash every so often. It's just impossible.

    Oh yes, what sort of proof would you like? What would satisfy you and get you to stop making awful accusations against Cuba? Nothing, that's what. Not long ago, you were asking me to "prove" that every single person in Cuba hadn't been 'disappeared' as I remember. I was thinking about how I'd do that. Abraham A. Adams - not disappeared, Alan A Adams - not disappeared and so on. It's just lunatic.

    No there aren't. Not thousands. Not hundreds. Not tens. Not one. Not one single person. Again it's just a stupid lie. I tell you where there are plenty of people being murdered right now in civil disturbances protesting against the government. There's been more than 50 killed so far. That's in Colombia and against the right-wing US-backed Duque government. You say you're not anti-Cuban, but you've spent hours finding out any little thing with which Cuba might be smeared. What are you doing about Colombia?

    But as I said previously, I'm going to haul up the white flag on this one. Not to surrender, but just to end the conversation.
  16. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Yes, haul up the white flag, that is all you can do. Run away from the truth, stick your head in the sand, do whatever you need to come to terms with your concience.

    You are the one that asked for proof that someone has disappeared, which is far more difficult (maybe impossible) than proving that someone has not disappeared - the authorities can prove it's lies as they just need let the family visit, or talk to these prisoners. Let the SBPD communicate with them when they enquire. Publish the charges, make the court hearings public, the sentences. Give them legal council and support. Just do what democratic countries do. How many accusations of "enforced disappearing" do we get in the UK, Belgium or Germany?

    I'm not anti Cuban but I am anti poverty, anti repression/oppression of the people, anti enforced disappearance of dissidents and anti socialist-dictators.

    I sympathise with decent Cuban people who find themselves in a living hell with no way of getting out of it.

    You say you are a Cuban, why do you make such a big fuss about social issues in the UK, when you turn a blind eye and pretend the massive social problems, the starvation, the poverty and lack of human rights don't exist in Cuba? Your hypocrisy is outstanding. Why aren't you and Cifriana back in Cuba with your children, enjoying what you say is a better education and healthcare, standard of living and lifestyle? We know why, Clive, it's because it's all a lie. So why aren't you working hard to improve everything over there? Again, we know why, it's because as soon as you stick your head above the parapet, you run the risk of being "disappeared" yourself. You know absolutely that if you were to demonstrate against the Cuban government as you do over here against the UK government, you would be arrested and maybe "enforced disappeared" yourself.

    So you just bury your head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening.

    I've not spent hours at all. I've spent less on this than you have listening in to one of your communist party propaganda webcasts, and I am merely repeating the accusations on the HRW, Amnesty, the United Nations's websites, and the proof of enforced disappearance provided by the SBPD document you shared.

    We both know who is secretly feeling guilty and ashamed about what is being posted here, Clive. You just run away and hide.
  17. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    Who thinks Deeney should start on Saturday, then?
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin and Diamond like this.
  18. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    Red shorts or black?
  19. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Well, that appears to be exactly what you are doing right now, so perhaps you should think about why you are doing it and maybe enlighten yourself.

    Your post is the epitome of ignorant arrogancence; having no understanding of the situation, as you admit in a post above, yet arrogantly pitching in with this pontificating post about why it is a problem when other people do it. You don't even know enough about this situation to know who is ignorant and who is not.
  20. ST1968

    ST1968 Academy Graduate

    Ho ho ho
  21. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I dont understand why you don't just come out and say who has created a second profile to like the first profiles posts? It will give me a laugh.
    The Whoosh Magnet and ST1968 like this.
  22. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Fidel would say red, obviously.
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin likes this.
  23. ST1968

    ST1968 Academy Graduate

    The person I caught hook, line and sinker with my other post.
  24. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    There was a reasonable conversation going on in here, other than Otter getting upset about me disagreeing with him, until you started with your politics thread rubbish.

    You have contributed nothing, flung poop around the place, and proven your own claim of being ignorant in the most convincing manner possible. And it seems you are the only person who understands anything you are going on about, all while you won't speak directly to anyone you wish to criticise, instead making pathetic oblique references.

    The politics section is gone. Let this rubbish of yours die with it.

    Sad doesn't even begin to describe it.
  25. ST1968

    ST1968 Academy Graduate

    Ho ho ho
  26. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    What was your contribution, other than to start a spat?

    Let it die mate. You can cling to the politics style posting, but let the rest of us get on with some civil discourse.

    Come back when you are a little less, as you described yourself, ignorant.
  27. ST1968

    ST1968 Academy Graduate

  28. ST1968

    ST1968 Academy Graduate

    More please, comic gold.
  29. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    It used to be that the US said that any country who trades with Cuba will also be embargoed from trading with the US which pretty much any country cannot afford to do. It may or may not still be that way so I cant confirm.
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin likes this.
  30. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    ST1968 likes this.
  31. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    And that, everyone, was exactly the problem with the politics section. And it is pretty clear who is doing it, and very deliberately so.

  32. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Yes, and I would agree with most that it is unreasonable for them to do so. I do not like the US sanctions, but it is for them to decide how they wish to deal with the damages caused to them by the revolutionary government.

    I often wonder whether the US's goal of regime change would have been achieved a long time ago if they had taken an active role in trade and support for Cuba. I believe they have put themselves into a very unfortunate corner with no clear (acceptible - to the people of the US) way out.
  33. ST1968

    ST1968 Academy Graduate

    At last we agree Henry!

    Abuse directed at specific individuals as in posts 124, 129 and 131 has no place in modern society let alone on this message board.

    I am pleased I didn't rise to it this time.
  34. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    All of them responses to posts you have indicated were intended to antagonise me when I was having a civil conversation. Funny that after starting it, and getting the response you sought, you seem to think I am to blame. You admit you started it. Now just stop it.

    You didn't rise to it. You are it. It isn't me that does not enjoy a spat, it is the rest of the forum. So do them all a favour, and keep it civil.
  35. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Fidel - 'el caballo', the invincible, would have been 95 today.

    On the one hand of course, we miss him. He knew how to insist that Cuba is respected and how to give it hard to the Yankees. On the other hand I'm glad he didn't have to witness the disgrace to Cuba of July 11th. It would have broken his heart.

    By the way, those who like to insist that Fidel was some sort of "dictator", might like to note that there are no statues of him in Cuba. There are no streets or cities named after him. None of that agrandising stuff you see with actual dictators.

    When he died, his tomb is a simple rock with a placard containing one single word - FIDEL. Not at all dictator-like really, is it?

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