Cuban Situation

Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by Clive_ofthe_Kremlin, Jul 30, 2021.

  1. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    You have spent most of the post trying to make out that the family of Cuban dissidents that take part in anti government demonstrations must be anti Cuban government!

    Duh! I think we know that.

    And then you use an online Cuban Government mouthpiece like EduRed to back up your own accusations, as if that settles the matter! :D

    How about reading what Amnesty International write about Cuba.

    You keep saying that these people have done this and that, like stealing state secrets, and gone through a proper justice system, but where's the proof? Where's the public record of convictions? Where are the court cases, the defence lawyers, the phone calls to relatives? When this sort of thing happens in a democratic country, it is all out in the open. If Cuba want to withhold all this information, including where the detainee's now are, then they have effectively "disappeared".

    It's quite simple.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
  2. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Just for clarity, whose propaganda machine is Amnesty part of, in your opinion? As that is one of my main sources of information.
  3. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Wrong thread, this is the pro v anti Cuban government thread. You need to start your own anti UK thread elsewhere.
    iamofwfc likes this.
  4. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    Where did I say the propaganda or "facts" belonged to one side or the other?

    Of course Amnesty is a more impartial source than most but, as you have pointed out @Clive_ofthe_Kremlin has gone to articles from Cuban government mouth pieces to back up his claims and, as he has pointed out, you have used articles directly linked to anti Cuban Revolution supporters to back up yours.

    Which is the only point I was making. People will trust information from "their side", whatever the source, if it backs up their already fully formed opinion while dismissing the "other side's" sources. It is why propaganda and misinformation works.
    ST1968 likes this.
  5. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Which is, coincidentally, the most likely sign they have been / are being.
    sydney_horn likes this.
  6. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    That isn't true, I've only used articles from the BBC, Sky and Amnesty.
  7. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    And @Clive_ofthe_Kremlin demonstrated how the Sky article was directly linked to anti Cuban Revolution sources in Miami.

    I'm afraid even legitimate news journalists are not immune from the influence of propaganda and misinformation, even if it is totally unintentional!
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin likes this.
  8. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    This is getting daft.

    The Sky article also reported, and directly quoted, the Cuban government in their denials. So, using your logic, the article is "directly linked" to the communist government of Cuba.

    So, I'll accept that as me using an article directly linked to both sides of the argument.
  9. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    Or directly linked to sources of disinformation and propaganda.

    Look, you can carry on seeing this as a black and white issue, as I'm sure Clive will. I can't tell you how to think but I believe, as with most things, it is far more nuanced than that.

    I think that you, quite correctly, distrust the information coming out of the Cuban government sources (as indeed a healthy distrust of any government information is a good thing). But perhaps you should ask yourself why the US government, it's agencies and "free Cubans" have spent so much time and money on a campaign of propaganda if it doesn't work?

    I have no doubt that Cuba, as with most other undemocratic countries, is repressive (absolute power corrupts) but that does not mean that everything they are accused of is true.

    Anyway, my original post was in response to @cyaninternetdog 's post about the way information manipulation is used to influence opinion. Nothing you or Clive have posted has done anything but reinforce that.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
    ST1968 likes this.
  10. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    It isn't a black and white issue, and some of my previous comments on Cuba demonstrate that. But, on this issue, I am tending to believe Amnesty who have quoted several sources.

    I certainly know that I can suffer from unconscious bias, like every other person on earth. That is why I look at all sources, and try to take them into account, but not always successfully. I think that one or two people on here that make out that they take a balanced view of things, but in reality, they are just as guilty as anyone else.
    iamofwfc likes this.
  11. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

  12. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Yawn, when it doubt accuse someone of being unpatriotic.

    Fact is, you wish to contend that Cuba is inferior because it is communist. If you want to do that you need to explain inconvenient truths about capitalism, for example that no one drops more bombs, more napalm or incarcerates more if its own people than the US. And to be fair, you need to take the Cuban context into account, a small Country being strangled by bullies.

    No one is going to defend abuses in Cuba, but you have to examine the evidence and it doesn’t permit you to make leaps about the whole society.
    folkestone orn likes this.
  13. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    iamofwfc likes this.
  14. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    Isn’t this < shudder > a Politics thread?

    iamofwfc likes this.
  15. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    I didn't mean it to be a political thread. I just wanted to let people know what's going on, direct from the Cuban's mouth.

    I'd like to see @zztop debate this face to face with Cifriana. He'd have a whack round the ear with her fan for impertinence within the first minute I reckon.
  16. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Re your Amnesty article. Firstly, although it says 'latest news' - the last update was 22nd July, more than a week and a half ago. The article does not claim "hundreds disappeared" like ZZTop and the lunatic fringe of Miami, rather it complains of some cases of slowness to advise family that a person had been arrested and warns that this "could" constitute a person falling under the definition of 'disappeared' if not rectified. It notes that government officials are adamant that everyone is accounted for. It complains that in some cases, family haven't been allowed to visit prisoners. Perhaps that's a legitimate complaint and I don't know if it's been resolved in the intervening time.

    One thing that surprises me greatly is that Amnesty calls for the "unconditional release" of all those detained after the disturbances. Despite the damage done to property, despite the assaults on police and officials, despite the attacks on revolutionaries who came out to defend their streets. That seems to me to be foolish and the Cubans are most unlikely to comply with that. Why on earth should they be given a get out of jail free card? Many by the way (the majority?) have already been released with a fine or a caution or whatever.

    Finally I loved @zztop's description of the man who tried to flog Cuba's top secret Eastern military defence plans to the enemy as a "dissident family". Brilliant that. Just like British dissident families such as Burgess, McLean, Philby etc. What a shame that the British regime's hated state broadcaster continues to call these noble dissidents "traitors".
  17. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    The Guardian isn't that surprising. They often follow the state narrative these days. Access journalism and all that, I guess. It amazes me how many people believe everything the CIA etc come out with.
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin likes this.
  18. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    Exactly. If they are so welded to the belief that socialism doesn't work, then why don't they do this? The powers that be cannot allow their own population to see an example of a far smaller nation, with far less resources, give it's population access to free healthcare etc. They are terrified of the US population demanding the same thing.
  19. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Latest lie circulating online - Cuba is burying covid victims in mass graves. Comes complete with photos and video showing mass burial in pit. The liars say the (identical) photos are in Santiago, Guantanamo and Sancti Espiritu.

    The photos/video are not from Cuba. They're trying to identify their origin. In the meantime, the Cuban 'regime' are in the usual position of trying to prove a negative, as zztop wanted me to do with the supposed "disappeared". All they can say is that it's not true.

    Meanwhile, philosophical sages and students of World affairs will stroke their chins as they read reports of the 'claims' of mass burials along with the "regime's" denials and give both equal weight. Perhaps deciding there's a high probability the claims are true, when they're just simply false.

    It's so frustrating!
  20. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Glad you loved it, the description is apt. It really is comical in how you interpret some things.

    The UK is a democratic country where the government have been elected, and have to be re-elected every few years and the general public get to vote. Those spies you mentioned were recruited by Communist states during the cold war, were mainly in upper class privileged positions and had not been dealt bad hands by our system whatsoever. There was even a Communist Party they could join and vote for, or the communist controlled Labour Party, if they felt inclined, or could have become active in the trade Union movement, if they wanted to pursue communism/socialism.

    Cuba was seized through a violent revolution and the country has been a one-party authoritarian state ever since, with no elections other than totally Party controlled manoeverings. Dissidents in their thousands "disappear" or are murdered (and you have admitted as much in the past, even though you deny it now) and there is no means for normal people to have any say, let alone the "opposition" to get any foothold at all.

    The Cuban government is totally corrupt, and has been for 75 odd years, including when Batista was in power. The country is starving, the people are suffering unless they are in amongst the Party faithful, and they are desperate.

    The circumstances are like chalk and cheese, but it made me laugh.

  21. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    OK, well we won't turn the thread political if possible. I said at the start that I appreciate you are implacably opposed to every aspect of the Revolution and we have been over the same ground on which we disagree many, many times. However I have not and never would say that there have been thousands of disappeared and murdered 'dissidents' because it is demonstrably untrue. Cuba has been a haven of peace and tranquility during decades where many thousands indeed were disappeared or murdered by rabid and bloodthirsty dictatorships in just about every Latin American and Caribbean country, many of them with the connivance or encouragement or as a result of interference or invasion by your beloved Yankees.

    Not one single person has been disappeared or murdered by the state. Not one. You know it's lunatic claims like this, not even claimed by the most extreme of the extreme mouth frothers of miami, that really damage your arguments regarding Cuba. It shows you up as unserious.
  22. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    I swore I wouldn't get involved in any of this political tittle tattle again .
    If my opinion on Andre Gray is different to someone else's then this is what
    this forum is about .

    However , arguing over which political slant i.e. left/right has killed the most
    people really gets my fingers hovering over keyboards.
    HenryHooter and iamofwfc like this.
  23. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    why the surprise that anti communist Cubans come from Florida, as if it is some dastardly breeding place for worm people?

    Again, that attitude does your argument no favours. Where can an anti-government Cuban go if they do not wish to be silent on the matter? How many Cuba Libre organisations are there openly operating in Havana? How many years have they been established on the island? How many members of the opposition Freedom party are there debating Liberty in the midsts of Cuban political circles. When you argue that ZZ is being naive and innocent for the arguments he makes, you only make yourself appear doubly so.

    What will happen to those arrested if they continue to complain, or spread the Libre message? Will they be allowed office space and access to printers? Or do they go the same way as with other socialist regimes? Do you believe the regime would tell you if they were disappearing people? Do you believe they would tell the rest of the world? Do you trust what they say implicitly and without question?
    iamofwfc likes this.
  24. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    From a well respected human rights organisation Human Rights Watch. Yes, main office is in New York, but they are a worldwide group, criticising all sides, left and right wing states like the USA, and Chile under Pinochet and current President Piñera, and Saudi Arabia.

    and another article;

    Now you may think that these are "lunatic claims" by this organisation and choose to believe the Cuban government are telling nothing but the truth, but your stance that "Not one single person has been disappeared or murdered by the state. Not one." will seem pretty ridiculous to just about everyone. but your Cifriana.
    iamofwfc likes this.
  25. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    It is extremists and authoritarians that do the killing. The notion of left and right is redundant when it comes to extremes. They both become the same thing, just with different excuses.

    Problem is, arguing a moderate position, from whatever side, is quickly equated with extremism by those who wish to tar opposition with the same brush used on themselves. If you argue strongly from a moderate point of view, you will still be called a nazi or a commie in pretty short order, depending on who you are talking to.
  26. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    During a revolution desperately attempting to over throw a despotic, corrupt regime, 'country or death' is a fine and appropriate expression of the passions that must be drawn upon to achieve a worthy goal.

    During a peace time revolutionary period, where the suppression of non-conformity is required to prevent counter revolution, "country or death" sounds more like an unpleasant and terminal promise, and a clear indication that such things are not far from the minds of the revolutionary leaders. That anyone glorifies such a phrase or sees the need for it in internal politics 70 years after the revolution won the day, is really quite an unpleasant thought.

    Country and life would appear a far more promising attitude to take. Even as a counter revolutionary slogan it would appear to be about as supine and peaceful a position as one could take in arguing against the Cuban powers that be. Perhaps we shouldn't be rejecting the 'worms' out of hand?

    Perhaps there is more to both sides. You seem to be suggesting that people listen only to the revolutionary version, and you are making it sound as unpleasant as you say the Americans would like us to think it is, in this case.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
  27. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Ok well I had a quick skim through the first one. As you say HRW is a USA organisation. Still, I don't see anywhere in that article about anyone being murdered or disappeared. Perhaps you could highlight that section for me?
  28. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Now read the second and still struggling to find the bit about murdered and disappeared. You'd think it'd be near the top wouldn't you?

    Anyway, I'm sure you'll be able to help me out and prove once and for all that your claims are not those of a lunatic.
  29. cyaninternetdog

    cyaninternetdog Forum Hippie

    "Truth" always disappears in the fog of war and the war is all about hearts and minds at the moment. All I know is the big three USA, China and Russia are just playground bullies and the world would be better off without them. I cant see there ever being a hot war between these countries anymore as the costs would be so horrendous it makes no sense so what is the point of it all? It makes me wonder whether an organisation like Hydra actually exists sometimes.......

    I dont know enough about what is happening on the ground in Cuba to comment fully but these days if people are getting fired up online I have serious concerns about who is behind it all.
  30. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Do you stick with your statement that "Not one single person has been disappeared or murdered by the state. Not one." ?
    And it isn't an American organisation. They are worldwide group. And are not funded by governments.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
  31. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Yes I do. 100%.

    And I'm still waiting to hear whereabouts in the two articles you linked, it says about murdered or disappeared people. Are you unable to help with this? Could you respond?

    Similarly, of the "hundreds" of Cuban disappeared you claimed at the start of this thread, you have so far produced (sort of) evidence of one - claimed by a nutty Miami woman on behalf of a CIA-front organisation funded by NED and USAID. I've been trying to find out more about the plight of Mr Mustelier Sosa, but since his sister's lurid claims more than a week ago, there has unfortunately been only silence. She either seems to have dropped her claims of 'disappearance' or no media outlet is publishing them anymore - which seems rather strange.
  32. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Oh and by the way, HRW is notorious for following the US state department line, especially in Latin America. They are based in the United States and have ex-State Department officials on their board.

    Very far from being either 'independent' or 'global'. Amnesty is far better on those scores, although not perfect.
  33. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Maybe it is the other way round.

    Maybe the US state line takes notice of independent sources such as the HRW and Amnesty when it comes to Cuba, as it backs up their claims with facts and the overwhelming weight of evidence of poor human rights on their doorstep.

    The HRW has ex-government officials on their board from all over the world. They are "ex" so they can be anti, as much as pro in their relationship with their former employers. and HRW criticised the US on several occasions. Recently very critical of Trump and his border policy and latterly Biden for not acting swiftly enough to change it. They also go completely against the US government with regards to criticism of Israel.

    Yes, you can throw up whatever you like to cast doubt on the accusations against Cuba, but I have tried to use independent sources to back them up, and not the obviously biased articles (even if they contain a good element of truth), whereas you are only able to use sources that are so obviously pro Cuban, including their government themselves in your defence.

    You can try to fool us, and I am sure some on here like Moose will take your side as it is anti US, anti USA, (and anti zztop on this forum), but you don't fool me, and I suggest you don't fool most sensible posters on here.
  34. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Good OK. Well we started out with me asking you for proof of the "hundreds" of disappeared you claimed. You've produced nothing. Now is your chance to list them. Put some proof in your pudding. All you've done so far is link to two articles from HRW which, while critical, don't mention anything about murder or disappearances. The only other thing you've come up with is that CIA/mafia press conference and the extremely dodgy Enrique Whatsisname. I'm still pursuing him, but there's nothing. Zero since 26th July anywhere. Either he's been forsaken by his sister and the Miami wormery (since they've stopped talking about him) or he was simply nicked as originally thought.

    I'd appeal to you one last time to examine the evidence available to you and make a sensible judgement instead of one coloured by your anti-Cuba prejudices. Yes, there might have been examples where families were slow to be informed that their rioter had been nicked. I accept that. But Cuba did not, has not and never has murdered or disappeared people. It's just a lie.
  35. cyaninternetdog

    cyaninternetdog Forum Hippie

    Clive, you would be better off taking this to a place that agrees with you, I wouldnt worry about people posting stuff on a football forum as I doubt very much many people that care about the situation you are talking about come here. Arguing with people on here is a total waste of your time.

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