Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by Clive_ofthe_Kremlin, Jul 30, 2021.
Agreed, couldn't give a monkeys.
What is the point, when you dismiss what the likes of Amnesty and HRW say about Cuba? Or the affected families that have lost their loved ones? If I turned up on your doorstep with a Cuban dissident that I had personally rescued from an internment camp in the Cuban jungle, you would still deny it.
I've got better things to do.
So here is a website that wasn't in the slightest bit hard to find. Interesting sections elsewhere on the website on Cuban health and education service, too. Enjoy.
BTW, I am against Communism as a sustainable ideology, and murderous dictators. I'm not anti Cuba, The Cuban citizens have suffered terribly, and unlike you and your family, they don't have the option of fleeing to a western country. They are stuck with what they have, starving and frightened to protest, demonstrate or even speak out.
No it isn't.
Oh yes it’s…oh forget it.
This is obvious nonsense. About 1.6 million Cubans live abroad, most in the US (about 1.3m) with another 150k or more in Spain. The population of Cuba being 11.2m in 2012, so probably higher now, but about 10%.
By an extraordinary coincidence, this is also about the ratio (10%) of British people who managed to flee, sub-standard housing, **** weather, crime and pensioner poverty to live abroad.
Yes, you have become extremely tedious on this. Quelle surprise.
But the point should be obvious even to you. You say Cubans cannot leave and yet they do so in the same numbers the British do.
Only a complete plank could equate thousands of Cuban exiles who were in fear of the authorities for their political beliefs, or their sexuality, some in tiny boats in desperation, with the many Brits that used their savings and pensions to live out their retirement in the sun - but you apparently fit the bill.
You really are hilarious.
Well, a time has passed Lord Topp, and you have singularly failed to provide any evidence whatsoever of anybody murdered or disappeared. In fact you've linked articles by organisations such as HRW which, if there truly were murdered or disappeared people, would surely report it.
I asked at the beginning whether you were prepared to withdraw your accusation of "hundreds of disappeared" at the start of this thread and noted that you would look foolish if you didn't. That has come to pass and you've shown yourself up as unserious.
There are criticisms to be made, I accept that. I personally think that there need to be stricter rules introduced about the interaction between Cuban police and the citizen. I think there needs to be better process and a strengthening of citizen's rights in such situations. It is well known for a long time that the Cuban police aren't slow to give everyone within reach a whack with their baton when there's the slightest sign of disorder.
However, the fact that their super power neighbour is hellbent on toppling the Cuban govt is bound to make them a little lairy when it comes to dissent. Can you not see that? 62 years of sabotage, bombings, invasions, assassinations and trade blockade. Most recently they were pondering (another) invasion and significant people were calling for US military airstrikes. Might that not.make the authorities of any country a little edgy?
Although it's not an exact analogy, we know of the sentiments here when the nazis were just across the channel waiting to invade. The enemy was around every corner. People were suspicious and on the look out for spies and traitors. Just think for a minute how you'd have got on in those days standing up on a soapbox and saying down with Churchill and we ought to invite Hitler in. That'd be bad enough, but imagine further if you were also receiving regular hefty donations of money and propaganda materials from the Nazi party to do what you're doing. You whitter on about 'free speech' but can you see, even a little but, that such behaviour wouldn't be accepted? In the same way that speaking up on behalf of the IRA of Al Queda or one of a dozen or so currently proscribed dissident (depending on your point of view) organisations is not acceptable and doing so quickly gets you into serious problems with the people and the authorities.
Lift the blockade, let Cuba function and trade normally, lift the threats from over them and THEN we can talk more about such niceties as police reform and spaces for the expression of criticism and ideas for reform. The fact is, things were going nicely that way before the twin bombs of Trump and the virus. The rolling stones played, Obama visited, the supermodels fashion paraded round old havana, the cruise ships came, tourism was booming, small private industry was legalised and was flourishing from the tourists. I really thought we'd be able to disband our solidarity groups and that the future was safe and secure.
One final question for you on this subject, and I'd appreciate a straightforward response rather than blather and waffle, you remember that fella from Guantanamo who tried to sell the Cuban military defence secrets to the Yanks? Well I was intrigued by your insistence that he was a 'dissident' who presumably should be 'freed unconditionally' in comparison with Philby, McLean and so on, who were traitors to the UK and rightly punished as such.
I'd like to ask you that, if I were working at one of the nuclear bases or GCHQ say, and can fairly be considered a dissident (inasmuch as I'm opposed to this country's capitalism and would like to see its downfall), and I decided to further the onward march of socialism by flogging a load of defence secrets to say, Vladimir Putin or the Chinese and was caught doing it, what do you think should happen to me?
A) Released unconditionally. I'm a dissident just trying to do what I believe in and it's free expression after all.
B) A stiff fine and community service
C) A prison sentence
D) The firing squad.
I'd appreciate hearing your selection.
Having travelled extensively in Cuba in 2003 and having no affiliations to left or right politics, seeing good and bad in both, my observations are thus....
1- Certain times in a countries history/development a communist/peoples revolution is absolutely the best option. ie Russia 1917, post war China, post war Cuba. (Vietnam Im not so sure about. ) . When the ruling system is so corrupt and disregarding of the general populace a revolution is the best and quickest way to redistribute wealth and alleviate extensive poverty. However it can only undergo this rapid change by replicating technological advances largely already made in capitalist countries, by doing it cheaper and better. For its cheaper and easier to imitate than it is to innovate. This is how China bootstrapped their economy, as did USSR in 30s. Capitalist countries also did this ie Japan in 60s and 70s and indeed USA achieved its 20th century economic boom by replicating the achievments of the British industrial revolution.
2- The cost of this is restrictions on freedom of expression but the benefits far outweigh this sacrifice, at this time in a countrys history.
3- When I was in Cuba I was amazed by the health care system , the level of education and the celebration of high culture and of course of the people, but surprised that outside the cities the horse was still the main mode of transport and that food shops were bare.
4- Admittedly this was because of the US aggressive foreign policy that refused to trade with any country who traded with Cuba. No developing country can afford to forgo their potentially biggest trading partner, and with the withdrawal of Russian trade after the collapse of Soviet Union, Cuba was left in global isolation. That is unforgiveable behaviour on the part of the US, in my opinion, to punish a countries populace because you dont agree with their government .
5- The only city where I saw any crime whatsoever was Santiago, which had an edge to it that wasnt apparent anywhere else. Its no coincidence that this was the only city at that time to have had extensive tourism and so the influx of capitalist values instigated this criminal edge, of that I have no doubt.
6- But my enduring memory was walking down a street and hearing an incredible Mozart piano concerto being played live on a piano . I peeked my head around the door, ( for all doors were open) and witnessed an 8 year old girl playing an impressive grand piano , inside a beautiful but crumbling colonial house that had probably been built by Spanish imperialists. The family invited me in and gave me food and rum and a free music concert of a very high quality.
A fair analysis this.
I would observe re horses in the countryside that Cuba is the only country judged to be developing sustainably by the WWF. There's a good and bad to most things. Lack of cars is a pain when trying to travel, but good for air pollution and means the streets belong more to people and less to the motor car.
A friend of mine grew up in communist Russia and had very happy memories . As she grew older she learned how they were being fed propaganda but then again they had a comfortable life , perhaps without the opportunities offered to people in the west but then again they didn’t have slums like those that existed in South Bronx where drug addiction caused prostitution , crime , babies born without proper parenting etc and landlords committing arson on blocks of flats to claim insurance and killing many in the process.
Such a difficult debate to navigate .
I look at India and China as comparables . Two countries of equal size facing same problems . 70 years ago one went down the path of democracy and the other down communism , but communism that has turned into full blown capitalism under the rule of a cabal of corrupt party officials . And yet China has increased its standard of living if its poorest people way more than India .
But at the same time China could not have undergone its economic miracle without copying a and adopting western technology that was largely founded by a free market , intellectually free system that fosters innovation .
Decent article in the Guardian today by the author Helen Yaffe, who lives in Havana.
If only you were even occasionally amusing or fair.
The situation concerning refugees was a bad one, counterproductive and wrong.
But as you well know, Cubans are now free to leave Cuba when they want and could have gone to the US anytime during the Trump administration should they wish to have their children caged.
Amusing or fair?
Well your amazing bit of whataboutism was probably one of the funniest attempts at distraction I have ever seen.
Cuban refugees versus Brits retiring to the sun.
Go on, tell me another one.
I've stayed out of the debate because I haven't been to Cuba, however I do have Cuban friends who are all fond of their country and of the Castros.
The US can do one if they think they can intimidate other nations' companies for dealing with Cuba. We can't ignore the fact that the blockade is illegal anyway, and if Florida wasn't a swing state for presidential elections the blockade would have melted away years ago.
Well that settles it then .
Are you going to answer my question, or not?
Are you going to withdraw your accusation of "hundreds of disappeared" or not?
People tell you about their personal experiences and Sr Otter moves in Latino circles I know, and you poo poo everything anyone tells you and say that you know better because you read it in the Daily Mail. You've never seen the sky over Cuba. Have you ever met a Cuban person? Not a worm, a proper Cuban from Cuba?
I've explained why I'm not going to answer your question, back in post #72.
And I've met many Cubans, as colleagues and considered some as friends when I worked in El Palito Venezuela in the late 70's. They had come from Cuba as part of a program of resettlement for skilled workers that were not supporters of Castro. I didn't pay much attention to the detail, if I'm honest, as I wasn't politically minded at the time but I did know some they extremely fearful for their families left back home who suffered extreme intimidation and poverty, but I was aware that there was some sort of arrangement where they were able to transfer some funds back to Cuba for their families, via the Cuban Embassy in Caracus (I believe).
So, I would agree that I haven't had the chance to discuss the political situation with pro Castro revolutionaries, but then I doubt if you would "lower" yourself to mix with dissidents, who you would consider to be traitors and "scum".
Do you agree with the persecution of the LGBT community in Cuba, and their enforced exile to Florida, along with thousands of sick hospital patients during the Mariel boatlift? Are you proud of that policy?
I'm not poo poo'ing anything Otter reports, but personally, I wouldn't have reached firm conclusions on the basis of a handful of people's opinions, either anti or pro.
Difficult one, but why is it that Cuba must rely on the most capitalistic country in the world to sustain its communist system?
The blokade seems extremely brutal, but the US is a capitalist country which had, like it or not, much private investment in Cuba. If Cuba then, understandably and without criticism from me, chooses not to honour those investments, why should it believe that the US would not take sanctions? Denying Cuba the benefits of its capitalist system by providing it with cheep goods, technology and investment?
Yep. I would love to see the US drop the blokade, but that is not my decision to make, and if they choose to keep it in place, they appear to have a reason to maintain it that is convincing to the people. That is democracy.
If a communist state cannot survive without capitalist support, then how can it be argued that communism works? Even if there were no blokade?
It is to Cuba's credit, and Fidel's, that they did not go the way of North Korea. It is difficult to percieve the country as a murderous state, but it is no less difficult to wonder why there are so few people openly criticising any element of the government in Cuba itself, or to wonder why disaffected voices all come from the nearest safe haven (and find themselves criticised as worms because they have to do so), rather than from within government, or on the streets of the island.
Regardless of political system most countries trade goods and services. After all the USA imports more manufactured goods from communist China than it exports. Capitalism just can’t make it, would not be a conclusion I would take from that.
Similarly Germany was heavily reliant on gas from communist Russia, (and still is from Russia whatever definition of political system is now).
So the whole world relies on capitalism to some extent. It is good that people recognise this.
A bit simplistic. On the other end of the scale, if every country was communist, countries would still rely on each other but with the added bonus of not worrying about tariffs and the race to the top.
But that’s exactly what you did do.
@zztop I have some good news for you. I have managed to locate Mr Enrique Mustelier Sosa - remember him? The only one you half produced any sort of evidence for being 'disappeared', despite no doubt hours of frantic googling. You linked to a press conference given on Miami by a shady CIA/Miami mafia organisation, which even Sky News felt warranted a caution as to its believability.
I found this document produced by Miami worms themselves, which claims to show the names of those arrested along with other data, such as what they've been charged with (public disorder mainly), DOB etc. Here it is:
As you'll see, Mr Mustelier Sosa appears on the list and it says he is being detained in Guantanamo (City not camp!) which we kind of already knew, as his sister contradicted her own claims of him being 'disappeared' in other interviews, where she complained about him being held in solitary.
This document though adds a little more information as you'll see. It says "Detained in Guantanamo. They said in the prosecution that he was taking part in operations, but it is a...." The rest is obscured unfortunately, but we can see that not only is Mr Mustelier Sosa still in the land of the living, but his relatives know precisely where he is and what he's been charged with. It also seems clear, since the prosecutor has made statements, that the legal process is under way.
Will you now agree that your one half-baked example of murdered and 'disappeared' in Cuba is in fact NOT disappeared or dead at all?
A simple yes or no will do.
Or will you simply avoid questions you can't answer as earlier in the thread. I cautioned you right at the start that you would show yourself up by clinging to the illusion you'd so love to be true about Cuba (because it would fit your narrative and prejudices) and so it has turned out.
To back up Clive's point about people disappearing an insight is provided by the UK Government about what the process is if you get arrested in Cuba. It basically says that the authorities have 72 hours to send notification to the British consulate but they will send it by post so it could be a week before they know anything has happened.
To me a "disappearance" is loosely translated as a "terribly inefficient system" in my opinion.
I think this post demonstrates why there is no point in discussing this with you. You are so indroctrinated and so unwilling to even consider any evidence, including from Amnesty, that it is pointless. You've picked out one example, from the many the articles have spoken about. And I certainly wasn't thinking merely "current", but historical over the last 65 years.
Plainly, any "disappeared" prisoner can be made to appear quickly, once the disappeance hits the worlds headlines, just so he can be used as "evidence" of the whole lot being a carefully constructed conspiracy agreed by thousands of Cubans over half a century.
Yes, if you like (yawn), Clive they are all making everything up. You may be convincing yourself, but despite the trickle of support on here, you won't be convincing anyone else.
That is the theory. In reality it seems a very naive assumption. Where communist countries have real power and influence, they very quickly start acting like fascists. If you don't believe me, take a look at every powerful communist regime that ever existed.
Capitalists, admittedly, will act like diks, but communists will become murderous fascists at every opportunity.
Perhaps it is the adversity that Cuba finds itself in that has kept it closer to the straight and narrow. It never got to flex its muscles on the world stage.
I am of the capitalist persuasion, I was explaining a fact that countries will trade with each other irrespective of political leanings
I have clearly not picked out Mr Mustelier Sosa's case. YOU did! You said he had been 'disappeared' by the Cuban authorities, I said he hadn't. I've now provided what I believe is proof that I am right.
Since you once again dodged the question, I will try asking you again. Do you accept that Mr Mustelier Sosa is alive and well and his whereabouts known? Yes or no.
Would you agree that the Cuban system is just merely slow and inefficient rather than just "disappearing" people? As I suggested the other day
Precisely. It was also overwhelmed with 500+ people arrested and having to be processed.