We did already have two strikers on the pitch. You would have thought one of them could have hit the target.
Would be interesting (to me at least) how many goalkeepers get subbed off due to injury over the course of the season and how many times we have lost ours due to injury (gomes at least twice, Almunia, Bond)....HG in particular has been fantastic for us but he is made of glass too and there seems to be a touch of hypochondria about him too. Judging by the photo this morning, he has a cut....Was it really worthy of coming off the field of play ?
Leighton Baines isn't a striker but is their best penalty taker. Maybe Cleverley is our second best in training. Still think he deliberately missed to help out his former love.
Things I knew before yesterday but were very much confirmed - Without Gomes and Deeney on the pitch we have no leaders in the team. With either one we would have seen out the game. This is worrying with Gomes aged 37 and most probably in his last season. With more and more on here wanting Deeney out the club who else is going to lead us on the pitch? Certainly none of the current first team look capable - Holebas is decent going forward but his starting positions when defending are atrocious - The definition of insanity is seeing Watford defending corners and set plays in the same manner but expecting a different outcome - As has been mentioned constantly on here, all Deeney does is score penalties. If Deeney does leave then we will lose a valuable simple method of scoring goals - For all that is good about Richarlison, his missed goal opportunities really hurt us. The one he missed yesterday in the first half was criminal. - We don't ever win at Everton. If we couldn't win against one of the worst Everton sides I can remember seeing then we are never going to beat them at Goodison. Still obviously depressed after yesterdays result. However I do agree with everyone that would prefer to watch us lose this sort of game to the ones we lost over the past two seasons and surely we will win more than we lose in the long term if we carry on playing as we did yesterday.
Hi-jacked account ? Is there a hidden apostrophe or something in the name ? I didn't go but can't recall being more fed up after a match other than Leeds & the CP Playoff final. Not helped by looking at how the table would look "after we won 2-0". Psychologically that sort of defeat can do so much damage. Karnezis looks a complete fairy and I will never believe anything Sherlock says again. We are missing Prodl and to an extent Kaboul so much. Trying to defend a shrinking lead away against a pumped up opposition with a central defensive unit of Karnezis, Kabasale/Marriappa and Britos ...well there was only one outcome.
It's possible to agree with you and still say he is an important asset. He is a wing-back and not an out-and-out full back. His passing and particularly his crosses are excellent. His surly demeanour and poor game-discipline are poor but this season it seems to have improved somewhat. I would guess Silva has been working on it (not something he is likely to disclose). I would say his technical skills are amongst the best in the squad and he puts in a shift, too. The mix-up with the goalkeeper for goal 1 was one of those things that happen when a fresh keeper first comes in. It happened when Gomes started, too. I even remember it happening on Gordon Banks' England debut! Like every body else I was very angry with yesterday's result, but we don't have the luxury of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Of course Cleverley's penalty was a shocker but if Grey hadn't smacked the ball against the bar from about three feet out after Richarlison was brought down for the pen we would have been spared the misery of the miss. Looking forward to thrashing the Irons in a fortnight - especially if they appoint Moyes
A decent post but I'm not sure Kabasele is that good; a bit unreliable at times, but improving and good at times, I would say. I'm also not sure I'd have been happy with a draw - Everton are currently very poor and we really did chuck it away against them.
I bet Fermenia is good at pens. He’s not English, he’s got great technique, a little ruffle of that lovely hair, slow, but considered run up before giving the keeper the eyes and sending him the wrong way. Easy.
It was Carrillo who smacked it against the bar and, as they pointed out on MOTD, the whistle had already gone so it wouldn't have counted anyway.
Zonal marking needs to ******* stop. Thats 4 games running we have conceded because of our **** set up for defending from corners. Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Oh my, where to start! Ok, let’s start with seeing out games “professionally”. As far as I can recall we have failed to see out games twice this season. Once was against Chelsea which is a disgrace I know and the other in some quite bizarre set of events on Saturday which you can hardly pin on the entire team. The Gomes injury was not ideal to say the least but to then say we capitulated is nonsense in spite of the result. We were pretty much in control and in fact went 2-0 up before Karnezis completely lost the plot. Silva may be very diplomatic for all the right reasons but one player introduced uncertainty with that moment of madness. However mistakes happen and Karnezis will just have to work hard building his and the teams confidence in his command of his area. There are issues with us defending set pieces for sure and there will be plenty of arguments over the zonal marking. As for our central defenders, let’s see how we do once they are all fit and ready, hopefully after the break. Not saying a replacement isn’t required but sometimes a combination of centre backs works. We have been limited to hobsons choice at the moment due to injuries but Podl and Kabaselle does not sound like a bad partnership to me. That and a run of games. We have been forced to chop and change due to injuries so it’s not just down to “Zonal marking is crap”. And as for the third goal? Holebas slipped! Their attacker may have got past him but he was clearly not lining up to take him down. Agree that we do need another left back to at least offer competition and also Holebas is not getting any younger. Finally, we’ll be right in the crap if we don’t beat West Ham? Do me a favour. As a team you certainly do not want to go on too much of a bad run in the premier league but it’s November!!! If we were two points above relegation going into April I may see your point but as it stands I can only agree with Guy and that this is turning a run of poor results (not performances) into a season long prediction of doom. Can it all go wrong? Sure. Is it likely given the general quality of our squad? No.
Unless you are a genuine top 6 team, a point gained away from home in the PL is usually more than acceptable to most managers. I personally like the fact that Silva sets a high line & goes for the 'attack is strongest form of defence' ethos. We will gain more points over the course of the season this way, as has been demonstrated with the late goals in recent times.
Spot on. Yes Holebas makes mistakes that costs us goals, but the likes of Britos have been known to make the odd mistake!! Holebas's knockers seem to ignore the great crosses that he puts in the box which create goals at the other end. Who else in the squad can do this?
Our inability to defend has nothing to do with zonal marking, instead it is the implementation that is completely lacking. As I mentioned in another thread, zonal marking is weak against runners, and unlike other teams, we are completely failing to pick up the runners. I thought that this was because we did not combine man marking with zonal marking for their obvious aerial threats, but as @reids nicely pointed out in that thread, we do actually man mark (just very ineffectively) and it is actually the positioning of the players to zonally stop the runners that is a greater priority. Pure zonal marking has been deployed by far softer and smaller teams like City very successfully. Essentially, our defensive set up for corners is awful in every way. If we continue, it is more likely to get Silva the sack than a top 4 job.
I should have phrased it better. Lets just do simple man marking. Its simple and more effective. Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Until they can do zonal marking effectively just keep it simple and go back to man marking the big guys, having a couple guys on the edge of the box to close things down and someone relatively quick up front as an option if we counter. No need to make it anymore complicated than it is.
How do you know you can do zonal marking effectively in a game situation without trying it though? (although I do agree that our current zonal marking set-up is pants as mentioned elsewhere and will be the focus of a detailed article from me in the next week)
The cut was the superficial part of the injury. His head was whiplashed back by the bloke's knee and I think the concern worry was concussion. He looked unsteady and it was the right decision to take him off imo.
Apologies to Grey - although I'm sure if the chance had fallen to him he would have f***ed it up as well.
Let’s be completely honest. This defence was not good enough last season and conceded from set pieces all the time. Since then we have appointed a manager who puts emphasis on attack, signed a full-back who likes to attack and was formally a winger, a CB that isn’t good enough for Udinese and a GK who, as far it seems, wasn’t the upgrade on Gomes some wanted. So on that evidence, are people really surprised? It was very clear that the squad needed an overhaul in the summer across the board. Sadly, the defence was neglected (hopefully to be addressed in coming windows). But it hasn’t been good enough for a long-time. Prodl is good, we need him. But lest we forget, he was good last year and the defence as a unit was terrible. This is an issue that needs sorting but in the transfer market AND on the training pitch. I agree there are more suitable penalty takers than Clevs in the side yesterday - it was a strange choice but Silva had chosen him, and people miss penalties. I’m not going to criticise Clevs. And I’m sure Silva will spend the next couple of weeks sorting this defence out as best he can. But it needs a real leader at the back to marshall the whole lot of them and shut the door on any nonsense defending when leading, away from home especially. At the minute that defence plays as 4/5 individuals and there is no partnerships at all. Prodl/Kaboul won’t fix that because the same mistakes happened when they were fit. I suspect results and games like yesterday will be the main feature of the rest of the season. Playing most games as a matter of ‘we’ll score more than you’. This would likely be much more effective with a goal-scoring striker. For me, Gray is doing okay but he’s playing more as a provider than a finisher and it’s easy to see why he was best at Burnley when played in a duo. If it didn’t negate Richarlison’s ability so much, I’d consider Okaka and Gray together against WHU. But given Ricky is our main outlet, at the minute, that would be dangerous. Make no mistake, a WHU side that is managed by Moyes in his first game away from home, they’ll be tight and playing for a draw and hoping to nick one. Basically Stoke all over again and we’ll need to be prepared better for that this time.
For me, if we manage to sign a leader, or dominant central defender in January, that would sort out most of our problems instantly. I was very disappointed by what I saw from Karnezis. All my fears about him were realised. He's one of those bouncy keepers, that throws himself about a lot. Lots of showy dives, but that's about it. He's another Arlauskis. He's not a "real" keeper in the sense that he commands his area and dominates. He looked so small in the goal, and the goal from the corner was just dreadful. He doesn't have a presence about him. I can't imagine him coming out and collecting a cross through a crowded penalty area. I really hope we don't need to use him again this season, as he's not what we need at all. Pants wasn't that good, but he's a far better bet than this guy. How bad must Wague be if he can't get even get on the bench during this injury crisis? Only saw him at Swansea, but he also looked very weak. I actually have some sympathy for Holebas. He's not very good, but he was a bit unlucky yesterday. There was no need for Karnezis to come running out like that for the first goal, and I think it probably confused Holebas as the option to nudge it back to the keeper was gone. He should have done a lot better and just cleared it, but the main blame for me lies with the keeper. He was very unlucky with the penalty.....and even though I've slaughtered Karnezis, he was unlucky not to have saved that, and it would have been a brilliant save had he done so. When I see this Watford team attack, it's wonderful. I can't quite believe it's my team I'm seeing. How good is Richarlison? What he did last night was amazing. His speed and quick feet are incredible. He missed a chance in the first half, but only he could have engineered that in the first place. The goal he did score was pure quality. A body swerve to deceive Pickford then he just smashed it in past two defenders.....no fear at all. The penalty was beautiful also. Such touch and it was a clear penalty, although Mr Scott was far too quick with awarding it. Had Carrillo scored it would not have stood as he blew his whistle before the shot, and how controversial would that have been, to disallow a goal then miss the penalty. Probably would have been very suited to last night's game. For me, the worst goal of the night was the second one. This shows how inept we are at corners. Everton were loaded at the back post and it was all too easy for them. It wasn't even a very good corner. Just a high floated one. Last night should not have gone so pair shaped. You can regroup as much as you like, and work hard on the training pitch, but there is still something feeble and na*ve about this Watford side. Going forward is often fantastic, but being smart when you're 2-0 up. Kill the game off, and manage it. We get far too caught up in the moment and I think some our players get overly excited. Britos and Holebas spring to mind when I think of this.
I think this is right , and I think that it's highlighted whenever Britos plays. Holebas is often caught high up the pitch, with an opposition player having countered and got in behind him. That leaves Britos essentially functioning as the auxiliary left back, and he is absolutely, utterly incapable of it. We've already seen, most recently against Brighton, just how incapable he is of actually playing as the left back, but he's almost as bad when required to fill that 'role' in those moments. When we see the team in that position, with an opposition winger coming into free space on the left of our box, we can also see Britos visibly shitting himself, very unaware of what to do and as a result finding himself in total no man's land, not coming out and pressuring, not stopping any cross or ball coming into the box. It's a bit annoying and surprising, given how often it happens; as RC says, it's something that we must recognise as a side effect of our players/play. Why Britos is still so unaware of how to deal with that situation I'm not sure. You would think it's something that would have been addressed by coaching if nothing else. I'm fundamentally not a fan of Britos, and it's got nothing to do with being a ****head against Brighton. I just think he always makes at least one catastrophic mistake a match, and they are often costly. He also appears incapable of understanding offside, or playing an offside trap, despite the fact that he's always trying to do it. Makes for fun and enjoyable times when he gets it wrong again, and we get to watch an opposition attacker fly through into our box as he jogs back looking perplexed/angry with his hand in the air.
Good question. I've taken this from the moment our defence started screwing up. It was under Flores. We had an excellent defensive record for the first 29 games of our first season in the Prem. We only conceded 30 goals from the first 29 games. An incredible stat. Then the final 9 games we conceded 20 goals!!... The following season we conceded 68 goals from 38 games under Mazzarri, and this season we've conceded 21 goals from just 11 games. Add that all up and it comes to 58 games and 109 goals.
No, and they never have been. English supporters and pundits have been falling into that trap since at least the 1960's.
In short, with our team set up as it is, results like last night will happen. We may have to accept that until the defence is sorted. It’s just very disappointing that this time it happened without the opposition so much as working for it. To lose to Everton when they are in this form and this void of confidence was very very poor indeed. I have some sympathy for Karnezis. I haven’t seen enough to make any sweeping judgement, as there are plenty of people who say he’s decent. He likely came flying off his line to make a statement and got it horribly wrong. But Holebas? ‘If in doubt, put it out...’. From then on, (eg. second goal), he was always going to stay glued to his line. He should have done better for it, but not of the 10 in front of him helped him out last night at any stage.
Fair enough. I’m not sure anybody can disagree that our defending has been poor and mostly it’s not because we are committing players to attack, it’s about corners or free kicks where we should have time to set up properly. We badly miss Prodl but a major part is not just him but the fact we can’t get a settled back 4. The best defence I’ve probably seen was Arsenal’s from a few years back when they pretty much all played every game. Natural defensive talent of course helps and our better centre backs always seem to be injured but you can also see why Silva was annoyed we didn’t get the defenders he wanted. On the flip side, Stoke aside, we’ve been great to watch this season so far and I’m sure we will absolutely fine. Very very rarely do you get a team that is great going forward but also tight at the back but at least we have the going forward part going well
Taking penalties is sometimes allocated to non-strikers because in theory the keeper knows less about his shooting techniques. Of course, the player still has to be able to hit it hard and accurately. Doucoure? Holebas (!?).
My impression was that as Gomes was walking off at Everton with the medical staff he was saying/asking about coming back on the pitch but the medical man shook his head and said no way or something to that effect.
