Everton 3-2 Watford FC - 05/11/2017

Just back. Another game we shouldnt have lost. They were there for the taking. Gomes going off was the turning point in my mind as we were comfortable up to that point and by far the better team.

Very disappointing in the end.

 

With luck he'll get the job for the rest of the season

 

doesn’t silva instruct his players to stand like bleeding statues at corners each and every game?

On a side note...

We haven’t won since Deeney spouted off b0110ck5 after the Arsenal game

Clev was never destined to score that pen, we don’t score three goals away from home, we’ve scored two goals in every away game this season[/QUOTE]
Listening on the radio and flabbergasted when the guy said Cleverley was taking pen. No surprise with the result. Silva has made poor decision in nominating Tom in advance. They gave him a torrid time up there. This was unnecessary pressure for him and will be a knock back to his confidence. One of the strikers should be demanding to be the one nominated. Not blaming Silva for on pitch errors but this the first time he has shown his fallibility. He also needs to get a defensive coach in as set pieces equal goals whoever the opposition are. Need to improve in next two games otherwise we will be on a definite slide.

 

We've lost three in a row, but we were the better team in all three of those games.

My main concern is how much damage that will do to the team mentally. Individually, each result isn't concerning. Put together, losing three games when you were the better side in each is a horrible blow to take.

EDIT: I'm bemused as to why Rich wasn't taking the penalty. Cleverley is a very odd pick.

 

Seconded. Never liked him since he first came to us - even then protesting and arguing.

Wouldn't mind if he was a tremendous player, but he's really not. 5/10 for running with the ball. 6/10 for his crosses. 3/10 for defensive ability.

I doubt he's a great team mate to have in the dressing room either, judging by the personality we see on the pitch and what we've heard about his whinging and complaining about anything and everything.

We can do much better I reckon.

 

I'm going out now.
I may be some time...

 

I have to say I could see this coming at 2-0 I just knew that they would be well in it if they scored and their fans got behind them. When we scored the second I though right it 's time to shut up shop and see the game out but we still carried on pushing on like we were ****** Brazil. I would have been happy to see us just go 5-4-1 and sit back and defend like our lives depended on it. I I believe if Everton didn't score within 10 minutes of conceding the second their fans would have got on their backs and we would have seen the game out but we conceded within 2 minutes.

I know the goalkeeper should do better for their first but for me Holebas should have done better, I can't really blame him too much for the penalty incident as that was an unfortunate occurrence but Jose Holebas is probably my favourite player and (Richarlison) but I am starting to think he is a bit of liability he is always out of position and he don't really make much of an effort to get back when the opposition are on the counter attack.

Silva needs to change how we defend set pieces zonal marking don't work as the attacking players running onto the ball just jumps above our defenders as they are able to get higher. I mean how many goals do we need to concede from a set play for him to change it we have already conceded 10 goals from set plays this season!

The less said about the penalty the better I thought Andre Gray took penalties at Burnley fairly successfully I seem to remeber him slotting one away for The Clarets against Arsenal last season. I was never confident when I seen Cleverley step up. It may sound harsh but our captain needs to take some responsibility if he was not so stupid in the last game I have no doubt he would have slotted the penalty away. I think not having enough leaders on the pitch did not help to either. I welcome the international break and Gomes, Pereyra, Sebastian Prodl and Younes Kaboul should be fit again.

 

Holebas is still a big asset. The over reaction on here is comical.

 

Gutted after that but it's important to keep perspective. We were the better team throughout the game, even at 2-2 when you'd have thought they would have the momentum. It's incredibly frustrating to lose due to inept defending (1st goal and 2nd) and bad luck (Gomes injury and Holebas slipping into the attacker by the look of things from the away end for the 3rd), and then to top it off with Cleverley missing the chance to make amends. But, again we have put in a very good performance in the main, it's remarkable how we've managed to lose the last three. People comparing to the last two seasons are wrong, we've dominated periods of every away game this year to an extent we haven't before. Whereas before we'd have panicked at 2-1 and sat deep and prayed, we actually kept playing and never suffered a period of sustained pressure from Everton for the whole match.
Also, we've played as we have without Pereyra/Chalobah/Prodl who are all starters. I think the problems we've had with crosses and long balls (two goals v WBA, one v Arsenal, two v Chelsea, one today) will be better once Prodl or Kaboul are back.
The only worry is what losing like that does to morale because performances still point to us winning more than we'll lose. That's without mentioning the brand of football which is the best we've seen since coming up and, indeed, up there with anything I've seen from non-top seven clubs in the last few years.
Today hurt but, like Chelsea, partly because we did so well in many ways.

 

You don't think we've seen much better full backs on other teams then?

He's got an average to decent cross on him, but his defending is moderate at best and his discipline is appalling. I bet every opposition manager instructs their team to try to get under his skin because he loses his head.

I've just seen enough of him now. I think his position and that of Britos are two that need urgent improvement in the Jan window.

 

A special mention for the guy in the chat box who typed “miss” when Everton scores their pen and typed “goal” when Cleverly missed. Really appreciated watching the shout box in the States. Utter ****.

 

My 2 cents..

- Hughes looked good! Some very nice touches and movement. No problem with him playing whilst Pereyra is out, and hope he continues to be in contention for the matchday 18.
- Absolutely livid that we let that shower of ***** back into the game. So dreadfully embarrassing. We were home free at 2-0, and the team can have no excuses for their implosion.
- Gomes. An absolute trooper, and I hope he's ok.
- Our defence is dreadful. Really poor.
- Why is it so seemingly difficult to find a decent 2nd choice keeper? Arlauskis, Pantillimon, and now Karnezis. Maybe he was just lacking match practice, but that was really poor from him.
- Cleverley. I love him as a player, but no way should be our 2nd penalty taker. Silva needs to take a look at himself, as Cleverley could not have looked more unconfident when preparing to take the penalty.
- Zonal marking. Stop it! It doesn't work!! How can Long John Silva not see this?
- Defensive set pieces. We are all at sea here. No organisation. Prodl and Cathcart can't come back soon enough.
- Gray. Actually thought he had a pretty good game. Need to watch the highlights to decide whether or not he should have buried the ball in the back of the net before we got the pen.
- Football is a funny old game, isn't it? Just a few weeks ago and we were the flavour of the month. Now, we can't seem to find a win for love nor money. We're creating chances, but cannot defend for our lives at the moment, and are missing players like Chalobah, Prodl and Cathcart who add balance, muscle and organisation respectively to our team.
- The team should have a long, hard look at themselves this evening. Very, very poor to let a lead like that one slip. We won't face many worse teams than Everton this season. 3 points thrown away.

 

And not a no. 2 keeper.

 

Injuries were not accepted as being any part of the reason for Wally's struggles in the back half of last season. In fact, he was blamed by some for causing the injuries (training too hard, second hand smoke etc).

Still remain unconvinced that getting rid of him was the right thing to do. Another victory for fan power....

 

He has bad games but still far more good ones imo. Delivery is excellent.

 

Wondered how long it would be before we heard this. Out of interest, why - other than Proper Football Men pundits on the telly saying it every time a goal is conceded through zonal marking - do you think this?

 

To an extent yes. We have too many defenders that are too error prone, too inconsistent, too hot headed & get caught out far too often in the same way. We are into our third successive prem season and we still concede far too often from crosses & corners. The core group of players have largely stayed the same yet theres been 3 different managers and coaching staff - and they cant all have been that rubbish at coaching defenders.

Playing similar opposition to the last 3 games, we kept 3 clean sheets in our first four games. Since then Kaboul & Prodl have been injured along with Chalobah who did a stirling job with Doucoure of protecting the back four. Cleverly just isnt the same sort of player.

 

Like Chelsea.

 

Going to retrieve your old fridge-freezer are you, IBB?

 

I believe we’ve gained more points from losing positions than any other Prem team this season.




Half remembered, probably not quite true but a sense of perspective, chaps.

 

Missing Troy.

 

Do you know how zonal marking works? One good ball into the box and you're done. Easiest thing to do is overload one zone. Plus it's very easy for an attacker to get a run on you while playing zonally as it's static defending. I agree with the OP, zonal marking doesn't really work in football.

 

But it hasn’t ended. Only a quarter the way through.

 

You don't think entertaining football counts for anything, then?

 

Shamelessly lifted from a blog post on zonal marking and the inherent distrust of it in the English game:

The rest of the blog goes into more detail and pretty much sums up how I feel about it. If a goal is conceded from a corner by a team using zonal marking the system rather than the failure of the players is blamed. When a team concedes a goal from man marking the system is ignored and the players are blamed. It's absurd and is one of the most infuriating aspects of football punditry. The full blog is a very good read if you want to have a look:
http://www.thefalse9.com/2016/11/zonal-marking-premier-league-corners.html

 

Yep I agree with that entirely. However as pointed out it does require good communication (which I'm not sure our team actually has although can't know) and smarts. As a lazy player I loved defending zonally as I could get away with letting runners go, but loved it even more as an attacker because it is rarely, if ever, executed well consistently.

Pros and cons to both of course but executing zonal marking well takes an entire team rather than individuals, hence is inherently more likely to go wrong. Even top flight pros can't do it properly most of the time.

 

So what you’re saying is that Silva doesn’t know how to coach zonal marking, or he does and the players take no notice?
Are you also suggesting we’d have conceded so often with man marking?

 

Well that puts an end to this "magical" Watford feeling. I was hoping we'd kicked on from last season, but all the same traits are there. We're so fragile and vulnerable defensively. Over the past 2 calendar years, we must have conceded the most goals of any team in the Premier League. Our defence belongs to a relegation side, not this Watford side. It's awful and has been for a long time. These disappointments will continue until we can see out games professionally.

Missing the penalty at the end just added to the panto feel of it all. Everton are now just 4 points behind us. West Ham up next, and they will have a new manager by then. We'll be playing another side with a new manager. Lose that, 4 defeats on the bounce, against poor sides, make no mistake, we'll be right in the crap.

There is so much to be happy about with Watford, but it counts for nothing if you cannot defend. Chelsea, West Brom and Everton should have produced 9 points, but we've ended up with just 1. Ok, there were a couple of glaring misses at Chelsea, but in the main we're badly let down by the defence. It undermines everything we're trying to do.

Gomes going off, equals complete capitulation. It's not a coincidence. He makes so many great saves, and I think some people take it from granted. That first goal wouldn't have occurred with Gomes in goal. It was so poor. It gives Everton some belief. What did Everton do to scored their goals? Was it a great move, was it a fantastic piece of skill? No, it was purely down to our defenders not doing their jobs, yet again.

We cannot defend crosses, now how long have I been saying that? It's been a common theme since our promotion. We've had three different coaches, but none of them can sort out this problem. Corners are almost like penalties. It's crazy how many goals we've conceded from a corner.

Ok we are missing Prodl, but the problem was still there even with him in the side. Kabasele, Britos and Mapps should be nowhere near this Watford side. Cathcart and Kaboul are decent backups, Prodl first choice, but ditch the rest. They are not what we need. We HAVE TO sign a quality centre half in January.

Holebas is weak defensively, but he does have decent games. But in our debut season, he was backup to Ake, and rightly so. So why is he first choice now? I think we need better at left back and it's such a shame we missed out on Gibbs. I feel that was a mistake not getting him. He's been great at West Brom and it was all but done. We could have got him.

So much has been good, but that's all at risk now. We could seriously plunge unless we sort out the defence and get some of our injured players back.

 

If you read my post you’ll see that I wasn’t suggesting anything like that and I didn’t refer to Watford, Silva or our players once.

I took issue with the point that that zonal marking doesn’t work in football in general.

 

As much as the decision to put Cleverley on pens today was baffling, if Carillo had buried the ball in the back of the gaping empty net before the ref blew up for the pen, then it would have been irrelevant.

 

Alrighty, had a step back and trying to rationalise my thoughts here:

Gomes is much more important to our team than we realise when it comes to commanding his box and defence. For the faults we pick out of him (me included at times) he's one of the best around at coming for crosses, rushing out at strikers at the right times, putting his body on the line and generally being the magnificent bald brazilian octopus we fans love him to be. Karnezis is a very good goalkeeper as evidence from his but he doesn't have quite the same skillset nor more importantly the understanding and communication with what is generally a ropey defence, evident by the first goal. Holebas should have cleared that no question with a 'new' goalkeeper between the sticks but I could understand him thinking that Gomes would be coming to boot it out as he did against Arsenal (?) in a very similar situation but Karnezis, having been chucked into his first appearance would have been nervous which led to that hesitation and only twigged what Holebas was asking him to do when it was too late. Niasse has to be praised for harrasing the defence and forcing the error. Won't be the last goal scored by doing this.

The 2nd goal he could have done better with but in his defence he couldn't have easily gotten around the Everton man stopping him moving out to claim the ball in a league that protects the goalkeeper far less when it comes to this side of the game. https://streamable.com/ksrcz Gomes struggled with this when at Tottenham and is something that will only come with time, unfortunately. (http://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...ague-Exclusive-Walter-Mazzarri-Tottenham-News)

Will Hughes looks very sharp. Having looked slow and off the boil vs Bristol City a few months ago, he looks a lot more like the player Derby fans were telling us he'd be. He passes well, puts in a tackle and can put in a shift when needed. For now, Pereyra needs to start ahead of him if they're vying for that #10 role but he needs to be involved in more games at least from off the bench because he looks more than good enough to positively affect games. I'd be inclined to put him there ahead of Cleverley depending upon the team and style of play, like Stoke last week.

Richarlison needs a game or two coming off the bench and running at tired opposition. He did score, but he's also missing glaring oppurtunities and that will weigh on his mind. No, he's not the only one and it's superb mental strength to keep putting himself in those positions but he's only 20 and been involved in nearly every game. You wonder if fatigue is starting to set into his game if he's not managed better. It's a shame then Success isn't able to step up the the plate as we don't have many genuine wingers.

Andre Gray looked good today. Got an assist and the Everton commentary were very complimentary of him today (owing to how the Watford website was down and there were very few working streams going) praising his work rate and general harrasement of their defence. He won a few headers but should have done better with his shot on goal and sure as hell ignored Silva and take the penalty for himself.

 

He's an ill disciplined gob5h1te who didn't want to join us. I suspect Silva will have had enough of him too after today. He's a moron.