Valerien Ismael - Manager

Hi guys. Besiktas fan here. I signed up just for this post and will leave afterwards. I was pretty curious what this guy would do with his new club and I am not surprised. The sooner you guys get rid of this guy the better it will be. Since he left our team improved dramatically. If we had sacked him a few weeks earlier we could have been champions. We nearly haven't lost a game since he left. Currently 26 games unbeaten.

This guy have a football mentality suitable for lower leagues. Tall striker, long balls, uncreative boring football. He is stubborn. Don't want to change his style. We were playing cowardly against teams way lower than our caliber. Everybody was trying to tell him. This is Besiktas. One of big three in Turkiye you need to dominate. Play attractive. He didn't listen. Stuck with his stupid back three system even his squad wasn't suitable for it. Made us play old fashioned football. Players were really upset. Some of them were leftovers from 2 years ago when we won the league. They were shocked how worse our playing style had become. Josef Souza critisied him publicly for it.
When you listen his interviews he goes to say a lot about mentality, intensity etc etc. You think like "oh this guy must know his trade" But soon you realize all memorized crap don't have any reflection on the pitch. You have 0 chance reaching play offs with this dude. Sad but true. I don't know how he got that contract with you guys after his terrible spell with us.

I will post here 2 games from.last season that summaries his ability as a coach.

14/8/22 Alanyaspor - Besiktas 3-3

Alanyaspor is a medicore team. They try to play possession football but they are so stubborn with it usually against big teams it backfires. So we are ahead 0-3. 37th minute ref gives a stupid red card. All fine though Alanya is basically non existent on the pitch. We are comfortable. He panics. Hands the game to them. Parks the bus. Starts subbing defenders in. Alanya comes back. Result 3-3.

2/4/2023 Fenerbahce - Besiktas 2 - 4
this is with our current coach. Fenerbahce match. One of our biggest rival. Derby game. They have a title shot. We are trying to take 2nd spot from them. We are 1-0 down. Fenerbahce wins a penalty and a red card. Valencia misses. We come back and score 4 goals. Away. 1 man down. This is the mentality that could win you things. Not parking the bus against a medicore team and concede 3.


As far as I know he hasn't finished a whole season with any of his teams.

Get rid of him guys. Seriously.

 

By the way I can see thats some of you guys are pretty optimistic about this dude. That was me last year around this time. Feels like a de-ja-vu. I was trying to convince people on Twitter that there are positive signs and we have to be patient etc. etc. Then there goes one game and you admit that you were wrong all along.

 

We’ve gone through something like 15 managers in the last 8 years. Getting rid of our manager does us no favours whatsoever.

Valerian Ismael may not have worked out for you, but he seems to be doing the right things for us. We’re playing a million times better than we did last season, even if the results aren’t going our way.

The club needs stability now whilst we re-build. If anyone needs to go, it’s our owners, not Valerian.

 

Stability with a coach who doesn't have a single whole season in his career in a senior team. OK. Fair. Let's see how it turns up.

 

Perfect!

 

Seem a little bit obsessed are you okay mate? I would say most Watford fans don't really need a Besiktas supporter come on here and tell us about Ismael as we can all see for ourselves what is happening at our own club, we have looked the most well coached and together under Ismael than we have under countless managers in the last few years. If you look, you would see that many managers have been relatives bad at one club but been successful at another, I suspect that Barnsley fans would oppose what you are saying and that is football.

 

Thanks for the insight. I was expecting his style to be exactly as you describe - long ball to target man, pumping it forward constantly, playing the percentages type stuff. But so far it hasn't been. The biggest issue if anything is he's possibly asking our players to play a style which is beyond their capability in quick passing, holding possession in tight spots and picking the right pass.

Plus @CaveManHornet is right. We're a pretty wounded animal at the moment and expectations are low. I think most of the fanbase just want us to stick by a head coach and so he'll be given quite a lot of patience from the stands to get things right.

 

A bit unnecessary innit? It's a discussion forum, outside views should always be welcome. Seemed like a reasonable post from someone who also said he was pro-Val at the start.

 

Not that my opinion is worth any more than anybody else’s (it’s not) but maybe I’m a good person to post on this thread as I was one of the most vociferous opponents of his appointment.

I have been impressed so far. We look well coached. We are developing an identity. We aren’t playing hoofball. He seems proactive with his substitutions. The Louza incident shows he is trying to stamp down on ill-discipline. I’ve found he speaks well in interviews and is honest rather than sugar-coating defeats.

Of course everything isn’t perfect. The results so far haven’t been ideal. But it’s worth noting at both Barnsley and especially Brom he started like an express train before things de-railed. Maybe this time he will be a slow starter who (if allowed) can build something good.

I’m sorry for our visiting Besiktas supporter that things didn’t work out for them with Israel, but I really don’t feel it has much relevance to us. Welcome though @deniz and thanks for your input. Wishing you guys a good season!

 

So what made you wake up so early just to go on a foreign clubs fan forum, register an account and make your post? Strange behaviour.

 

Clearly you have limited players so Ismael had to turn you into the Turkish Barnsley. Ismael has made us the Man City of the Championship as we have superior technical players like Kayembe and Livermore.

 

Two words: T I M E Z O N E S

 

Up to this season at least there has been a huge and growing misalignment between how good the owner thinks the squad is and the actual reality of how good the squad is. I know everyone hates Hodgson and rightly so, but you’ve only got to look at how he came back to Palace last season, changed his style of management and kept them up effortlessly and with some style. He couldn’t do that with us because we simply didn’t have the players. Wilder made similar comments last week about how everyone kept telling him how good our squad was, but it actually wasn’t at all.

The point is it hasn’t mattered for some time who the manager of Watford is, because they were always on a hiding to nothing and had an impossible brief to fulfil. We’re yet to find out if that will be the case for Val too, but despite results being terrible performances have been the best we’ve seen for some time and I think most of us want to see him given time, because at the very least, if not him then who else??

 

Our next 6 matches, which leads to the next international break are: Birmingham (h), WBA (h), Leeds (a), Boro (h), Sunderland (a), Cardiff (a).

I think he needs to be around at least 15 points by that time. Don't forget Edwards was sacked with 14 points from 10 games.

So, for us to be on 15 points, we need to pick up 10 points from those 6. I honestly don't see us doing that, so I think he'll be gone by the next international break. I believe he's already showing signs of frustration in his press conferences. That 12th man comment (even if true) shouldn't be said really. It tells me he's struggling a little.

It's a shame, as I think he's doing a lot right, but has been badly let down by recruitment. But the owner will hold VI accountable and expects a play off push. We're way off it right now, even though he's had the majority of his first choice team to pick from so far. Only Lewis has been absent.

But in a way, it might be good......as I think if we sack Ismael in October, I think even the most placid happiest clapper will say enough is enough and demand the owner go. It could be a very interesting 6 games to come and the future of the season (maybe even the club) depends on it.

 

I don’t think Pozzo is that stupid that he will hold VI to the same standards as Edwards, but if he does I don’t think it will make any difference to our fans. When Edwards was sacked I’ve never seen such an adverse reaction to the owner, but all it took was one victory at Stoke for it to be forgotten by many. They are like goldfish.

 

I like Val.

Let's be honest, he's come in, he's changed the way we play completely (out from the back), he's lost Joao and Sarr who were our match winners (both would've flourished in this set-up) and he's not really been supported properly in the market!

He's picked the team pretty much every week that most of us would've picked with the players available to him at that time, with the only exception for me being Sierralta yesterday, i'd have had Kayembe or Kone in from the start.

We are actually playing with a purpose and you can see what we are trying to do. Last season under all 3 coaches I couldn't see what our actual pattern of play was and was left wondering what we actually do in training!

This team look well drilled and more motivated! That's only down to Val and his team.

I'm usually fairly pessimistic about Watford, certainly have been over the last 3 years, but strangely I am optimistic with Val in charge and just pray he is given the time and support!!

We as fans need to be patient with what's going on on the pitch. I am very positive it'll come good!

 

This season and the Edwards season are not really comparable. The objective last season was to win the league (Duxbury's words). All the messaging from the leadership, and the transfer activity, suggests this is a season of reset, and a promotion push would be a welcome bonus.

 

Not the impression I took. I think it’s clear we’re looking to be within a shout if the playoffs. If we’re looking likely to be going the other way then he’ll be sacked. Gino even alluded to it at the Q&A.

We’re not having a reset or rebuild. That’s the spin the club want you to believe. It’s a clear out. Only Rajovic and maybe Ince have a future with us beyond this season I suspect. That’s not a rebuild at all.

 

I don't think 'be within a shout of the play offs' is very different to what I said. And there's no way that ambition will be off the table 6 games from now.

I didn't say a rebuild, I said a reset. Which is clearly what has happened. We have the least bloated squad we've had in a decade, both in terms of amount of players, and wasted wages. People will argue we've gone too far in the other direction (and I'd agree, in certain positions), but it's certainly a reset of the culture that was allowed to fester over the last few years.

 

Disagree entirely with this bit.

It 100% should be said and I’m glad we finally have a manager that has said something. Watford have been getting shafted years with some of the most ludicrous decisions in the game and yesterday was another one.

As much as I hate it, we need to surround the refs, yell and put our hands up at every opportunity, and in every post match press conference highlight the ref if he has had a bad game. We have been too nice and respectful towards officials and it’s done us no favours. Time to join the dark side of the game. So personally I’m glad VI said something.

 

I think the point is we didn’t lose the game due to the ref, we lost it due to our own errors, and for some of the goals multiple, basic inexcusable errors. We only have ourselves to blame, not the ref. The main error you could say he made was the pen which didn’t even result in a goal.

 

The cheating/bias/bent/incompetent officials have plagued Watford for years. I’ve come to peace with it now. It is what it is. We’re a target for this type of thing as we’re insignificant in the world of football, outside our own fanbase. Yesterday’s was very bad, but what’s new?

My point is, it gives the impression Ismaël is under pressure as he’s already blaming referees. It’s a bad optic and it’ll only bring him into dispute with the FA. Fines will be forthcoming no doubt.

When I see a coach blame the official, no matter how justified, it tells me he’s getting a bit desperate.

You can’t do anything about it, so we should just concentrate on the things we can do something about. Isn’t the new directive, players will be automatically booked for any type of dissent, crowding the referee? Don’t you think yesterday’s official wouldn’t have taken advantage of that by reducing us to 10 men? I’m sure he would have, so we’d be even worse off.

 

Well we did lose it because of the ref. As much as we done ourselves.

From memory:

The ref gave them a pen that never was
The ref gave them FK’s that weren’t, and didn’t give us FK’s that were.
Godden should have been booked for pushing Andrews over Bachmann in first half.
Their third goal comes from a throw-in that is 5 yards out of position where the ball went out. The ref should have pulled play back and made them retake it in the correct position. He didn’t, he allowed them to take a quick throw nowhere near where the ball went out. Porteous is fouled after that mistake, no FK given, Coventry score.

Yes we done ourselves no favours, but the ref had a major impact on the result yesterday.

 

Pen didn’t result in a goal.

Throw ins almost never get taken from the spot the ball goes out, how often do players creep up the line and gain a lot more than 5 yards? Probably 90% of the time.

If you’re going to blame the ref for a goal being conceded from a throw in that wasn’t taken in the right place then ultimately almost every goal ever scored can be traced back to the ref.

More importantly, Chak wasn’t even facing the throw, Porteous absolutely wasn’t fouled (you and all of us would be raging if a foul was given if roles were reversed) and Pollock was idiotically marking nobody.

It’s a humongous reach to even remotely blame the ref for the third goal considering what followed.

 

One thing I will say is that, I'd have to work to find it again, but I'm fairly certain I read Andrew French quite recently say that from what he understood/interpreted, there is an expectation for playoffs/promotion from the hierarchy this season too.

 

Yes, both him and AL have said this. They danced around it during the Q&A but it was alluded to in the summer the expectation was a playoff push. The players were saying it during their interviews. I remember Ince said the expectation was promotion, or words to that effect when he signed.

If we’re still 18th come the October international break, I’d very much doubt VI will still have a job.

Only if Gino doesn’t pull the trigger will I believe there has been a shift in the mindset of the owner, but right now I do not believe it for a second.

 

Unrealistic maybe, but I’d kind of want them to say that. If they just said ‘oh mid-table would be great’, or ‘survival is our goal’, we’d worry their ambition had deserted them. Ambition isn’t a crime, even if it’s unrealistic.

 

But I fully believe they thought this would be a promotion push. Just like Luton had and Barnsley had, with a small squad of unremarkable players. The ambition is playoffs.

 

I think, especially given the surrounding context with us as a club, you'd usually be right, but in this case the blindingly obvious disparity between making that claim and carrying out the window we just carried out makes that somewhat criminal. It's making a rod for their own backs once again, at the very least, and nobody is forcing them to do it.

 

@Chumlax although in fairness they made the comments before the transfer window planned out the way it did, leaving us woefully short of cover in some crucial positions. I’d be more annoyed had they said it on deadline day!

Anyway it seems a rather superfluous topic after only five matches. Ditto the other way for any fans predicting the worse. Only time will tell! Like you, I suspect the incomings they’ve given us aren’t conducive to any sort of promotion push but we can only wait to see

 

Yes, absolutely potentially fair, though I am personally not minded to permit the idea that the transfer window 'panned out the way it did' - rather that they panned it out in that way themselves.

'Fool me once, shame on... shame on you. Fool me - you can't get fooled again.'