London Bridge

Yes, I agree ZZ. We should keep conspiraloonacy and rumour off the board.

 

I would imagine that these people have as much in common with your average Muslim as the Neturei Karta do with your average Jew

This is terrorism as we have not experienced before in Western Europe

Who can you negotiate with if you believe that's the right route forward?
How do you stop an individual intent on picking up a knife or drive a car into people?
How can Western people understand this ideology?

Unfortunately I see this as the norm for many, many years to come

The way to stop it is not palatable to your average government

 

What way to stop it?

 

This article by Keenan Malik an Asian writer opposed to multiculturalism might be of interest to some of you.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/28/islamism-separation-other-peoples-even-muslims

 

Moose - you asked me the same question on a different thread

In summary,

Globally I believe we need to stop our reliance on oil, we need to cut off the funding coming from Saudi Arabia, change our tactics in arming crazy people to overthrow other crazy people and look to invest huge sums of money into regions of terror to stop the locals having no alternative but to join terror groups

Locally we need to be strong and deport any hate preachers (difficult to define I know), close down any organisations proven to house hate preachers, have a strong policy on any British person returning from Syria et al and increase the security budget

Just my thoughts

 

That sounds broadly sensible. Not unpalatable.

 

I don't doubt what you say although I'm sure you accept there is not just one scholarly perspective on historical events. It is true that Stalin wanted a 5 year plan to eliminate all religious expression from Russia in the 1930s. Mao introduced the enforcement of state atheism in 1949 and Pol Pot banned religion from 'Year Zero' onwards in the 1970s. All three introduced laws that directly persecuted and killed those who followed a religion although they also bumped off millions of atheists during their despotic regimes. As we all know, so-called IS have killed many more Muslims than everyone else put together.

We may differ on our perspectives, but I think we'd agree that any attempt to eradicate religion from society is doomed to failure. This was the key point I wanted to make earlier. Whatever faith or not a person has, there will always be a tiny minority of warped f-wits who hide behind an ideology to justify atrocities.

 

Yes, of course, potentially hiding a few phone calls in a little office is akin to the government conspiring to kill children at a pop concert.

 

Almost 85%, £900m, of our arms exports go to Saudi. We import £900m of oil from Saudi

Selling arms is a hugely lucrative business to worldwide governments. They need war

Sending huge sums of money to aid housing, irrigation and education into war torn countries is not a huge vote winner and often the money ends up in the wrong hands

How do you define who we can deport and who we can't

Start shutting down places where radicalisation is encouraged and see the condemnation

That's why most of this is unpalatable

 

People are inherently spiritual , the fact that every civilisation or tribe of remote people that has been encountered has a spiritual belief system is proof of that.

The problem lies primarily with the 3 Old Testament religions Judaism, Christianity and Islam. These religions have hijacked peoples inherent spirituality and used it to manipulate, subjugate and control them.

In reality the only realistic way to rid the word of these malevolent forces is for them to fade away in time which is what is currently happening and will do over the next 100 years . But that doesn't change the idealistic drive of my argument which is that the world would be a far better place if those 3 religions didn't exist .

 

Im not a religious person but don't discount the amount of people that religion has saved by giving them something to believe in

 

It's unpalatable in the current state of world politics, yes. Perhaps that state needs to change.

 

So were the killers from last night just poor misled youths, like your description of the Manchester bomber?

 

Agree with all of that. In addition I think diverse anti racist groups should work together to confront Islamists when they appear, or speak in the same way people would against other racists or fascists. We need to not lose our nerve on our values.

 

I'm not sure haven't read anything about them yet.

I'm sure they will be Quran following, smoking, drinking, gambling, drug taking, prostitute *******, shining examples of Muslim men like the Manchester bomber was though.

 

I don't think any of us know how the leap is made from thought to action. So take the nail bomber David Copeland - how did his hatred of gays, black people and muslims become a duty that he had to act upon? His community? Not likely, even if a few had the same opinions. It seems you do need a critical mix of vulnerable and aggressive/isolated personality stewed in hatred for many years. Unfortunately this hatred is global and easy to get hold of. A few muslims isolate themselves and simmer in the hatred. We need to break their isolation and confront them like any other anti social elements. But they don't have much more to do with their wider community than we did with Copeland - they keep themselves apart from them too.

 

My view of some on here has diminished somewhat since this thread began. I've been reading in disbelief that some of you are actually using this event as a chance to score points off each other. You utter c***s.

 

Religion generally only causes violence and unrest when it is forced upon or is not tolerated by others, or attempts are made to destroy it. Tolerance allows everyone to co-exist.

In the distant past, Christianity was bad as any other, but in the UK now there are synagogues, mosques, sikh temples and churches from every strand of Christianity everywhere. All co-existing in relative harmony.

But as far as I know, Islam is the only modern day mainstream religion where extreme sections promote killing, torturing, raping and enslaving non-believers of their particular brand of Islam. They have clearly stated that they want to force their brand of Islam across Europe, Africa and the Middle East. I had thought that fighting this was something everyone could unite behind in a common cause, including the 99% decent Muslims, left and right, west and the rest.

Sadly, I am wrong. Too many pretend it isn't happening, or suggest it is OK because other bad things happen elsewhere, or shamefully use it for their own political ends - as we usually see after every atrocity on this forum.

Today, on a day when election campaigning was suspended following last nights murders, the PM made a non-political speech against terrorism, and Corbyn jumps in with an electioneering political speech criticising the Conservatives record on security before even the day was over and as there was a memorial concert being held for the Manchester victims.

So sad.

 

Completely agree, just like burglary is akin to global nuclear war.

 

I don't care whether they drink , smoke etc it is their rights as individuals to do as they chose as long as it doesn't infringe upon another's personal rights .

Previously in another post you described the Manchester bomber as " just another lost and misled youth "( I paraphrase) .
A truly despicable comment IMO.

To repeat my question to you ,Do you believe the culprit(s) of last nights attacks were nothing more than "just another lost and misled youths "?

 

Child.

 

How is that a despicable comment? Am I going crazy here?

He was a vulnerable kid as has clearly been highlighted in his personal profiling since the attack.

He was 22 years old, parents had left him and his brother in the UK whilst they lived in Libya, he smoked cananbis, was affiliated with gangs and was a uni dropout. Clearly that shows a certain level of uncertainty surrounding his life. He wasn't at all religious, found himself lost as a human being, went to Libya and returned a religious weirdo.

That doesn't make him any less responsible or any less of a c**t for what he done. Still doesn't make me wrong either, he was misled by smarter, manipulative extremists. What part of that is despicable you idiot?

As for the London attackers - I don't know. I haven't seen a profiling of them yet?

Also your use of "nothing more" I didn't say that's all he was, you're twisting my words now. I'm saying he was that and more. Pr**k.

 

What was that? Couldn't understand you over the sound of your ankle snapping as you backpedaled so hard.

 

The leap from thought to action can happen when the following is in place ...

1- politic climate that creates a need for extreme action
2- vulnerable and mentally unbalanced individual who will be open to control and manipulation .
3- Body of people who are motivated to arm , instruct and order the murders to happen

There are other smaller factors of course but that is the fertile soil that is required for this type of terrorism .

My point is that at some point we have to hold the individual accountable for their actions . Most serial killers have had horrors perpetrated upon them as children, at what point do we judge an indivual upon his environmental upbringing and what point do we judge them on their choices and actions .

Even a vulnerable and unbalanced individual has a conscience and moral set of values .
These people are nt psychopaths , often their history is benign , so I find any defence of their actions despicable .

 

Yes, I admit, I have completely changed my mind about you being an intelligent person. You're as thick as ****.

 

Ha ha, a real gem there from our friendly expert on psychology.

 

It's the Saudi funded mosques where most the extreme weirdo clerics spread their hate. It's Saudi where women have such poor rights, yet it's Saudi we as a country, keep sweetest. Work that one out..

 

Come off it Diamond, this is what we do. We talk, we argue, it's freedom.

You yourself haven't always been temperate around a terror thread, so get off the high horse and help us put the world to rights.

 

Agreed, but not while the bodies are still warm.

 

Verbal abuse may be your level Squibba and Im happy to accept that from you as you come across as quite young , if I'm being honest .

But the fact remains that to describe a cold blooded murderer of children as "just another lost and misled youth " is so unbelievably disrespectful to the grieving families of those children , that I still I find it hard to believe you said it.
Would you say that to the faces of those families ?

The truly worrying thing is that you can't even see how problematic what you said is .

I can only hope , and believe as I do, that the majority of peaceful muslims do not use the language and tone that you do .

 

They are utter bastards, bullying women hating, jealous losers. I ******* hate them with a vengeance, but I don't believe it's wrong to try and understand the whys.

 

I do actually apologise for the insults but when you twist my words to make it sound like I'm supporting / defending the attack, it's a bit annoying.

Fair enough, you think it's problematic and a bigger deal than I do. I know what my intention was, my point being he himself is not the critical danger, there's hundreds and thousands of lost kids that can be used as pawns in this sick game ISIS want to play. The focus should be on the guys doing the brainwashing and conditioning, not some sad loser who didn't even value his own life, he's a minor piece of the problem.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Enjoy the rest of your evening.

 

Saudi Arabia is truly a disgusting country and we in the U.K. Should not deal with them any level , but we do out of corporate greed and therefore we are a party to that although not a cause.
But there are other countries outside of that region that oppress women, young girls and homosexuals amongst others , just as badly as Saudi Arabia does .

 

I haven't twisted anything you said Squibba. Go back and read your own post and may appreciate how it came across.

Then ask yourself if you are willing too take responsibility for your words.

 

My opinion it's like a Mafia protection racket.

You got a nice country there, be a shame for anthing to happen to it...unless you keep the arms coming.