[SIGNED loan] Hassane Kamara (perm Then Sold Then Loaned Back)

Thanks for that reasoning, it’s a fair point. One I can’t answer.

 

1. I can't really speak of his transfer value, but a competent full back in the PL would be what? £10-12mn? So maybe slightly on the high side.
2. In terms of tax dodging, presumably he's signed a 3 or 4 year deal, so worth £4m off the Udinese bottom line this year; would that really make a dent enough in their profits to be worth the potential issues?

I genuinely think some folk are overthinking it. WFC need some cash to pay bills. Udinese have got it.

 

I don’t know, I mean this is just a hunch here, but I’m going to go out in a limb and say he’s probably worth somewhere close to the £4m we paid for him on the open market back in January.

 

OK if you think he was worth £2m, now is worth £16m, then no problem. As I said a great way to pass us some needed funds.

 

That's fine, but we've brought in a bucket load this window. So just how bad are the finances and why has Duxbury openly lied to the fans?

 

You don't think his excellent performances, for a crap side, in the highest standard league in the world, when he was previously only proven at a lower level in Ligue 1, would have done anything to his value?

 

Have we though? Sure, we've sold some players and there's money coming down the line. But how much of it has hit the bank account in the last few weeks so it can be used to pay off creditors?

 

Erm, why?!

 

Uh oh something’s happened so it must be bad

 

He was more decent than "excellent", us being so crap overall for the level made him seem better when he came in. He'll also be 29 at the start of next season. No way is he worth close to £16mil.

 

The whole thing suggests we needed some positive cash flow NOW, and I think @hornetboy1 has a point when he says this deal was already agreed in principle between us & Udinese if & when we needed that cash. The comments surrounding Sarr's move to Villa falling through seem to strongly refer to:
1. the way we wanted to structure the deal
2. Gerrard being 'unconvinced' that Sarr is worth it to them

I can't believe Gerrard was only asked at the weekend what he thought of the player Villa had agreed to pay over £25 million for. AF also talked about the complexities of the deal seeing as it was 'cash + player(s)'. If we were asking for £15 million up-front (cos we seem to need that amount of cashflow pronto), which is 60% of the fee, & Villa normally only pay max 40% up-front, then maybe Gerrard was asked if Sarr was worth over-riding their normal parameters for...and he said no.
The possibility of a loan of Archer being rolled into it all makes the chances of Villa paying so much up-front even less likely. (I think the Hause deal was going to happen anyway as Gerrard has no intention of playing him.)

Obviously all supposition, but the timing of the sequence of events is 'co-incidental' to say the least.

And if we needed minimum £15 million immediately, then the JP-Newcastle saga would have little bearing on things. And I doubt they'd front up £15 million either, seeing how their initial bid was £17.5 million!

 

We've already agreed deals worth about £55m this summer and we should also be getting 3rd installments on some of the deals we did 2 years ago which totalled around £100m. The JP deal is about to be done at around £25+5m too. Plus the PL money. If we need this money for transfers thats concerning, if we need it for cashflow its terrifying. If it'll be used to pay off the debt on the stadium thats awesome but there are also a number of other explanations too. Its impossible to have any kind of accurate view at this stage.

 

His stats for interceptions etc were excellent.

I didn't say he was worth £16m.

 

You’re better than this Malts.

The consensus from most, but not all, is that on the face of it, it looks okay but there’s question marks over what the club have said against what was said to Andrew French a couple of months back. It’s doesn’t really seem to tally up - so I don’t see why anyone should just wave this through happily.

Could be something, could be nothing. Let’s see how it plays out over the next couple of weeks and how Duxbury explains it to Andrew French after the window.

 

Sure, but you said that his value might have increased since we paid £4mil for him - I'm just underlining that it won't have increased by that much (and certainly not to anywhere near £16mil).

 

So you don't think his value would have increased by him proving he's capable of performing at PL level?

 

Helloooooooo.... I literally just said: "I'm just underlining that it won't have increased by that much" - i.e. yes it could have increased, but not by much.

He's also a player who is now 28 and so closer to the downward curve of his abilities, which will limit his value.

 

To be fair, the original comment said his value would be ‘somewhere close’ to the £4m we paid for him, rather than him being worth exactly that.

In theory, £7.5m is much closer than £16m for example.

 

You take that back about Holebas

 

I have reached the point (with Watford) of not worrying about things I cannot control. Just want this transfer window to be over, so we can concentrate on the many games that lie ahead. That leaves me to focus on stressing about work overload and the massive increase in the cost of living (three kids in third level education this year!) The Kamara deal smacks of the Pozzos pushing funds between their accounts to keep the show on the road. Who hasn't done that?

 

Somewhere close to £4m doesn't have any relation to the £16m fee. If Udinese paid £100m, it doesn't mean £40m is close to £4m, just because it's closer than £100m.

 

So you think it's increased? Glad we agree.

 

The original question was posed by someone saying they don’t know what he’s worth…

A reply came in saying they believed he was worth somewhere close to what we paid for him rather than £16m we have received.

You’re reply to that was to suggest the person giving that reply had said nothing had been done to increase his value at all.

‘Somewhere close’ also doesn’t mean nothing has been done to increase his worth from the initial £4m. Which your reply suggested.

Regardless, on the open market I’d say his real value, IMO, is far closer to what we paid than what we have gotten.

 

To a Premier League club with Premier League money...I guess that's not out of the question, but to a mediocre Serie A club it's certainly very odd. What's their record transfer? They can't have spent too many bigger fees than that!

 

It never said that.

I think his value is around £8m, so double what we paid. I wouldn't say an 100% increase in value is close to the what we paid.

 

I'm surprised that the fact we have sold him for £16m but are paying Udinese a one-season loan fee of £17m hasn't been raised.

 

Personally I think his real value is around £10m. If he’d moved to say West Ham or Everton that’s how much I’d have expected, minimum. So somewhere in the middle. But at least a quarter of that value and probably more like a third is tied up in the next season (given that he might play somewhere for four years and will decline and depreciate as an asset over the latter years of that). So that means his value to Udinese next summer is more like £7m.

A very odd deal all in all. If I were Pierpaolo Marino I wouldn’t be very happy.

 

Via Andrew French:

A whole £16m paid now? That seems...unusual, I don't even know if we'd receive that amount up front even if we were to sell both Sarr and JP

 

It is probably in Kamaras contract that his agent gets a cut of any future transfer fee. Or in Kamaras contract with Mogi. Either way Mogi will get a cut of this.

 

I must have missed those bids?

If my Aunty had wheels she’d be a bike etc.

This is an inter company deal most likely because our financial position is worse than expected.

There really is no need for anybody to jump through hoops to justify it.

He has half an ok last season and has looked less and less convincing ever since, he isn’t worth £16m or even close, we don’t need to make up imaginary deals to justify it.

 

Of course it’s odd - have you read my other posts?

The question I’m speaking to here is what a fair valuation of HK would be not whether this is justified or normal practice or whatever. West Ham were reportedly interested earlier in the window and speaking personally, if we’d got less than £10m that would have felt on the low side.

 

I guess we will know by the end of the season if this is asset stripping, a clever way for Udinese to avoid tax, trying to keep us afloat or something else. If it is asset stripping the money would have gone through the clubs accounts then into one of the other businesses accounts (is it HIL?) to end up back in the Pozzo network.

 

Yes and if Man City had bid £50m for him we would’ve got £50m, but they didn’t, and West Ham didn’t bid £10m… or anything.

 

Suspect it's an attempt to keep us afloat, it seems to tally with our sudden change of approach with Sarr. If the Pozzos were asset stripping, why wouldn't they have already sold Sarr and Pedro by now?