Chaos As Kabul Falls

Whoever was in power after 9-11 would have done the same. There was literally no other choice but to join America.

 

The US was in Afghanistan in the late 1950s and early 1960s and was already facilitating the Saudi import of fundamentalism, something the Soviets tried to suppress. You really are spectacularly ignorant.

 

Maybe, I'm not saying they wouldn't, although France didn't.

But the other 38 countries certainly had to pull out this week when America did, none of us had any choice.

So this continual moaning at the UK for pulling out, like it is all down to the US and the UK's imperialism, when other nations had even more troops than we did, whilst forgetting that we opted in 20 years ago under a different government is unwarranted.

 

I agree it wasn't possible to let 9/11 go without response to Al Queda and its hosts. It's been massive mission creep ever since.

And of course Iraq was no part of it and the invasion of that country wrong.

 

Haha, the 1950's? That's utter tosh as far as this current situation is concerned, and you know it. Both the USSR and the US were providing aid to Afghanistan throughout the Cold War, with the USSR giving more per capita than they had given any other country, including Cuba.

The Communists seized power from the monarchy in 1978 and when the Soviets feared that the communists could not cling on to power with their brutality, they invaded Afghanistan.

The invasion was nothing other than communist imperialism.

Really, who do you think actually believes the stuff you just make up?

 

I’ve never denied Russian imperialism, nor their brutality. It’s just you said they got there first and that is incorrect. In the 50s and 60s it was the West and they encouraged the Saudi form of Islam.

You are often wrong because you start from the premise how can I excuse the West? It’s bizarre you do that. Is it in your interest to promote corrupt regimes or the spread of fundamentalism?

 

As I said, the USSR were there all through, from the 50's until they invaded with brute force in 79.

Check your facts.

The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan caused almost 2 million Afghani civilian deaths and 7 million refugees and displaced Afghanis. Despite UN attempts at intervention that the Soviets ignored, they continued with towns and villages destroyed, vital irrigation systems destroyed, millions of landmines laid, the killing went on. 2 million deaths and 7 million refugees..

Is it any wonder that the west saught to help trying to drive the invading Soviet killing forces out. What else could they do other than declare outright war. That support has probably had bad consequences when looking at the results today, but they were only made due to your mate's brutality driven by the Breznev Doctrine that is all about socialist expansion. Yet you try and pin it all on Thatcher and Reagan.

You are a joke.

Stop talking rubbish, and I'll stop responding.

 

Why did Afghanistan go communist? Because millions had died in famines the wealthy West and the King did little to stop.

You are a shocking sinner by omission. That’s not about supporting the USSR, that’s about telling the whole truth.

If you can’t face up to the fact that subsequent Western intervention in Afghanistan has been a disaster you really are the comedy option on this forum.

And as for stopping posting, stop giving me open goals and I’ll leave it.

 

Leave Piers alone, he's done nuffin' wrong.

 

Why did they go communist? Because the communists mounted a violent and brutal coup, killed the incumbent, then followed it by sending in the Soviet Army.

You are funny, and sad.

 

Doctored video. Really not surprising…

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/joe-biden-fall-asleep-video-viral-false-sleepy-myth-explained-1174769

 

Anywho. Any "proper" military experts out there ?
Cos . If a country is landlocked, HTF , does it do logistics?
And if this country is self sufficient , guns and bullets wise, which
is unlikely, but , hey, you never know, why doesn't the US air force just
bomb TF out of these armament factories ?.
#JustAskin'

 

Different country, and continent, and war, but the point is the same

The African state where a grenade is cheaper than a Coke - BBC News

Not to mention the absolute mountain of US kit (guns, ammunition, helicopters, armoured vehicles etc) now in TB hands making them one of the best equipped armies in the region (with best wishes from uncles Donald and Joe)

 

I wonder if @Bonkingbob is going to own his fake news or do what most spreaders of same do which is to claim that it is substantively true if not then, some other time.

 

Misleadingly cropped? In the full video of the meeting he looks like he's about to nod off

They should have tried the dog ate my homework

 

The US have completed their withdrawal. ATC was shut down in the last hour and the final USAF plane has left Afghan airspace.

 

Thanks for the heads up. I just watched it - superb documentary. I just feel so sorry for the millions of Afghan families who just want to go about their daily lives peacefully and quietly without being invaded, occupied, ransacked, terrorised and/or murdered by forces from other countries or being invaded, occupied, ransacked, terrorised and/or murdered by violent religious cults from within, never mind their own government.

If anyone is interested, amongst the range of programmes about the country on BBC iPlayer, I'd recommend watching 'Storyville - Afghan Cricket Club, Out of the Ashes', all about the national cricket team and its attempts to qualify for the ODI World Cup a few years ago.

 

As the dust settles following Raab’s appearance in front of committee,



https://twitter.com/rhonddabryant/status/1433700580518764545?s=21

 

What was the travel advice changed (from and to) on 6th August?

The fact is the UK told all UK citizens to "urgently" get out of Afghanistan back on 21st April, warning of increasing security danger from the Taliban. They also started the repatriation process, including for the Afghani citizens working for the UK in April.

The above shows just one example of how Bryant is intending to dishonesty mislead (or lie), I am sure he will have been similarly dishonest in the rest of his tweet as well.

 

This one?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/taliban-hanging-black-hawk/

 

Thought Turning Point on netflix was well done. Shows what a mess the last 20 years have been and due to corruption the Taliban are welcomed in some areas. Dan Snow also had some interesting podcasts on it. A lot of the history playing out dates back to the time of the East India company.

 

The details behind the government the Taliban will be introducing clearly shows that the horror show in the "Islamist Emirate" will continue, despite their public words. Extremists, including terrorists, will form their government. Now they announce that China is their closest ally.

Their form of Islam will mean that 19,000,000 women will be terribly treated and suppressed. Girls and women will lose their ability to leave the house when they want, they will lose any access to money, their right to work, they will lose their choice of clothing as they must dress covered from head to toe in public, and will lose any other aspect that shows any degree of independence. Any women that don't comply will be severely punished or murdered.

They will be forced into "marriage" when they are still children. "Forced marriage" is ironically a sanitised expression for western stomachs. The reality of forced marriage is that, when they reach puberty, they will be taken from their homes and family and forced and held into sexual slavery and rape by despicable, dirty, smelly, hateful, violent men. If there is no "man" available for marriage, the girls will be "assigned" to a Taliban unit to be used as a sexual plaything. If they have children, they will be left to try and feed those babies themselves and punished if they try and earn some form of living to support the children.

Imagine how you would all feel if that was happening to your daughters and granddaughters. I find it literally, sickening.

Then there are the homosexuals, tortured and routinely thrown off tall buildings, or more recently, crushed by rocks dropped from tall buildings.

These treatments and atrocities are not carried out quietly or secretly, because the Talban need to rule by fear, so these "punishments" are done as proudly and publicly as possible to frighten the people.

If Islam is a force for good, they need to step up to the plate and put an end to these barbaric acts done in the name of Islam. Where are the decent non extremist muslims?

And where are those socially and/or politically motivated to jump on the mildest of sexism or homophobia over here? If they think Afghanistan is too far away to bother about, why not look at how muslim women are suppressed in this country by their fellow muslims.

Where are they all? The silence is deafening!

 

No argument with the first three paragraphs, but then you showed your true colours.

You've had forty years or more to get your thoughts in order about this. Yes, fundamentalism is a curse on humanity. Are other muslims responsible for it? No. No more than you are. Is it possible to live a moral muslim life? Of course it is. Asking Where are the decent non extremist muslims just puts you alongside Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins.

You don't like the Taliban? Maybe your heroes Reagan and Thatcher shouldn't have armed and funded them in the first place knowing what they were like. They were both Christians so I ask you Where were the decent non-extremist Christians?

 

Of course everyone agrees with the first paragraphs, it is convenient, it is easy, and it is conventional. Let's all wring our hands together, and moan into the ether in a collective sigh!

But it is the last paragraphs that matter the most when it comes to sorting it all out. Uncomfortable truths have to be acknowledged and acted upon. See how far you get sorting the problem out when complaining (albeit unfairly) about politicians who have been dead for a generation or more.

I prefer to consider what can be done to solve these issues now. You've already mentioned your two preferences. The first is to blame Reagan and Thatcher (that'll solve it), your second is to hope that the Taliban will change and become nice and friendly (yes, that will happen only in your head).

And yes, in my road, I live amongst many muslim families who live decent lives, with the women and men sharing household chores and careers outside the home. I see them and talk with them all the time walking the kids to school, sharing garden tools, inviting each other round to barbeques, etc, etc, and we help one family by looking after a muslim classmate of my granddaughter for an hour several times a week. So there is no need for your accusations of me being a Tommy Robinson, it is unfair and untrue - and nasty.

The mods have appealed to us to stop throwing such accusations about on here, why don't you listen to them for once.

 

Then stop writing rubbish.

I didn’t suggest the Taliban will ‘become nice and friendly’. That’s a ridiculous invention.

I don’t know what will resolve the issue, my guess is it won’t be. In the longer term, a mixture of carrot and stick. Action through the UN and rewards in the form of development for good behaviour. But the behaviour of the Chinese and Russians means this is most unlikely in the short term. It’s very ****** and there isn’t much you or I can do about it.

What won’t help is your blaming other Muslims who have as little involvement as anyone else. That’s you hand-wringing.

 

As difficult as it is to read @zztop is right to imply it is not NATO's responsibility to resolve Afghanistan, he is wrong that Muslims do nothing, they do indeed protest in other countries about this but it's usually lost in the aether. I think the biggest issue is the lack of condemnation or assistance from Afghanistan's neighbours that was more telling. If the Taliban were absolutely genuine about living honest lives to protect Islam, then why are they getting into bed with the Chinese given their well publicised ethic cleansing against the Uyghurs? The answer is perfectly simple, it's got nothing to do with Islam but has got everything to do with power, greed and suppression; then publicly using their twisted interpretation of Sharia law to justify themselves.

 

I am not writing rubbish, but even if I was (in your opinion) you should not be throwing these racist accusations about. Grow up. If you think something is rubbish, then argue the point like an adult.
I'm not blaming other muslims in general for the atrocities, I am saying that they need to play a bigger part if the Taliban are to get the message that their brand of Islam is not the one to follow. Christians can't do that. Nor Hindu's or Budhists.

 

Relatively speaking they are doing nothing as, you agree, what little they do, is lost. And I am talking about their (Afghanstan's)neighbours more than anyone. You speak about China, but what about Pakistan?

But the answer is not simple to deal with, even if it is simple to say on a Forum. If crimes are being committed in the name of Christianity, then it is dealt with in the west. That doesn't happen within Islam, does it?

 

The West conducted a phoney war in Iraq killing hundreds of thousands. Both US and UK leaders thanked their Christian god. How was that dealt with in the West?

 

I agree. It’s a bad World and geopolitics is the cause. Religion is just the thing that binds some groups, but it’s money, such as Saudi wealth or Chinese (or Western) backing that really props them up. It’s not religion per se, it’s just that you can use religion to justify anything as we have seen over centuries.

 

Largely that's true, the public condemnation of the KKK in the states, sexual abuse within the church, the Magdalene laundries in Ireland to name a few examples. These are being dealt with but it was a long time coming, certainly centuries ago a blind eye was turned by many as many people simply wanted to stay in line. Nowadays more people have a voice than was possible centuries ago, so these sort of injustices should be a thing of the past.

 

Yes, of course, I agree. But it is dealt with.

If a white man kills a black man then there is a law to be used. The KKK wore hoods to keep themselves being linked to the crimes that they knew were wrong. Sexual abuse in the church isn't proudly displayed as the norm, it is hidden away BECAUSE it is known to be wrong. Anyone turning a blind eye does so KNOWING that it is wrong. What is stopping a Taliban man raping a woman, or just killing one because she didn't wear a burkha? What is there to stop a homosexual being battered to death with a rock? Far from being hidden, it is celebrated - and it is being done when people DO have a voice and communication is easy. Comparisons and whataboutism are easy to make, but in reality this sort is chalk and cheese.