Chaos As Kabul Falls

Not a political thread in intention (so not looking to assess the party politics involved), but it's hard to ignore the humanitarian disaster unfolding in Afghanistan.

There are pictures of desperate civilians at Kabul airport and chaos as shots are fired by troops trying to protect departing aircraft. There is real fear after Taliban atrocities in other cities.

And there are possibly 4000 British nationals still there. Utterly grim.

 

Also the suggestion that a terror attack here is likely, as they will want to prove it was all in vain. I’m not sure how true that is but it’s definitely a concern.

 

Once their President did a runner with as much money as he could stuff into a helicopter I think the die was cast.

I agree with the suggestion that whenever we/the US/NATO pulled out this was always the most likely outcome, though I think the idea was the Afghan Army would at least do something to enable an orderly withdrawal.

 

I'm not sure the Taliban version is Worldwide jihad. They seem to want mainly a fully Islamic State in Afghanistan. Left alone, they may leave us alone, but within Afghanistan they will be harsh.

What there will be is refugees and judging by the pits full of bodies in Kandahar, refugees genuinely in fear of their lives.

 

Another imperialist adventure ends in a great skedaddle. I feel so sorry for all the service personnel and their families who lost so much in vain. What a silly waste.

Of course the history of British intervention in the region, overwhelmingly futile and unsuccessful, goes back to the early 1800s.

Older readers, of whom this board boasts many, will probably recall the Soviet occupation and the breathless BBC News reports all in green night vision as the reporters crouched behind hillside rocks with the heroic mujhadeen freedom fighters. And here comes a Soviet truck now!! Whooooshhh! Kerblam! Gottim!! HURRAY!

The heroic mujhadeen freedom fighters were armed to the teeth (Reagan/Thatch), including the very latest US stinger missiles, to bring down Soviet planes and helicopters. The hated Soviet occupiers are driven out in chaos! Hurray!

Oh, but what's this? The heroic mujhadeen freedom fighters have overnight transformed themselves into the hated Taliban! Oh no! How did that happen? Now they're chopping off hands and heads and stopping females from getting education? Now they're attacking the US! Invade! Drive them out! Defeat them! Mission accomplished! Sort of. Erm. Skedaddle!!!

 

Sadly this is what always happens when an occupation ends. Israelis waited for their moment to seize Palestinian land the second that the British Mandate ended. The Taliban have done the same thing. What's worse is that all of the training and equipment is now in the hands of the people the US were trying to stop.

 

For once I completely agree with Clive.

 

I seem to have upset most of the rednecks of America on twitter by suggesting if the US didn't want the Taliban the US shouldn't have created them to fight the Russians in the first place.

The video on twitter of the bodies falling from the aircraft is horrific. Loonies to think they can hitch a ride on the wheels. Even if they could hang on at 600 mph that aircraft is going to 30,000 feet and -40 degrees.

 

20 years. What exactly has been the point? Either go in with 'shock and awe' beyond what has ever been seen before or leave medievalist w.nkers alone to sort themselves out in their own time.

 

Just imagine how desperate you have got to feel to even contemplate doing that...

 

My gut feeling is they thought their actions in sitting on the side would force the plane to stop. Unfortunately there's no rear view mirrors on aircraft...

 

This really is desperately sad. It feels like the west have given people hope of a better existence and then it’s been taken away. There will be young people who have grown up in Afghanistan not experiencing the repression of the Taliban and now they have to live through it .

Ultimately , it does feel that any western intervention in the Middle East is futile and that we should leave well alone . Having got involved though it seems very cruel to have abandoned the Afghan people on this way , I expect they thought the Afghan army could cope but that clearly was a massive miscalculation.

 

I see that **** Farage is already raising red flags over Afghani refugees. The western world should offer asylum to every single person who wants to get out and leave the place to the medieval shyttstains to wallow in their own fundamentalist vomit.

 

The US will point to the fact that Bin Laden has been taken out, but the fact is the Taliban are back and stronger than before, I’m addition the al qaed and Isis prisoners have been released. No doubt there will be even more disruption in the region which will find its way to the west. Each time the US meddle, we follow and it’s an absolute catastrophe

 

I feel sorry for the tiny minority of people there that arent part of the cult. The vast majority are just uneducated and/or brainwashed, poor bastards.

 

I doubt it, most of the women are wearing face coverings at the moment so its all good in their tiny minds.

 

The delay in granting refugee status to so many of the brave Afghan civilians that supported us as translators, guides etc is an absolutely shameful betrayal of our allies. I'm afraid that this situation is going to become far, far worse very quickly and I fear for the massively outnumbered and under equipped service personnel that have been sent back there to attempt to sort this sh1t show out. Grim

 

This is how I feel. It is shameful. These people were given the opportunity to live in a more liberal society, and now its been snatched away from them and they will be subjugated by the most brutal medieval religion.

 

The fact that western forces have been there for 20 years and the whole thing collapses like a house of cards the moment they withdraw is a shocking exposure of the futility of being there in the first place.

20 years to prepare and the Afghan government can't even hold out for a week. 20 years of dead soldiers and incalculable billions of taxpayer money, and Afghan civilians are right back to being terrorized and repressed inside 48 hours.

A thoroughly miserable state of affairs in every possible way. It's pretty clear to see now that the choice is either being locked into a forever war or not getting involved at all. Both options are awful.

The desperation from some of the Afghan civilian population is heartrending.

 

Desperately sad for the Afghan citizens just as some relative stability was slowly returning to much of the country. Of course, the land has been nothing but a political pawn squabbled over by America and Russia with no regard to its people. In recent days I've come across these two articles that I found were eye-opening but thoroughly depressing reading:

1. What good friends left behind: Written by John Pilger in 2003: History is repeating itself. www.theguardian.com/world/2003/sep/20/afghanistan.weekend7

2. The Whitewashing of the Afghan War: A brutal appraisal of the way successive US presidents have treated the country. https://prospect.org/world/whitewashing-of-the-afghan-war/

 

Always wondered what Younas was up to since leaving the mighty 'horns!

 

Assume you’ll be first in line to sign on for a tour of duty?

 

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But you must surely agree that the West cannot indefinitely fight imperial wars?

 

Agree.

The problem isn’t disengagement, the problem is how it’s been done. Zero thought went into this. Trump and Biden between them have thrown everyone under a bus.

It will IMO have damaged future credibility, no leader of any European ally is going to follow the US next time they want to take action somewhere without thinking twice, even if next time it’s justified. I read none were consulted.

As it stands what’s the point of NATO now?

 

Sadly if the Afghan government wasn't ready after 20 years, I think it was never going to be. It's easy to point fingers at the rapid nature of the withdrawal, but Trump originally set a withdrawal date of May this year. It's been coming for a while and the Afghan government has had over 20 years to get ready for it. For me, the real question is why the national government was incompetent and folded like a house of cards.

For all that the plight of the Afghan civilians is awful, it's not right to mortgage their protection using the lives of successive generations of young soldiers. They're often economically deprived kids who've been sold a beautiful lie about patriotism and get the reality of hitting a landmine while defending a distant nation that doesn't want them there.

 

We should never have gone in to Afghan in the first place

But once we did, once we forced our governing on then, and once we started to make changes to their society, we have a responsibility to the Afghan people

Trump and Biden have thrown them under a bus without a moments thought

What a pair of total ****s

 

There’s a big issue as to who sustained the Taliban over the last 20 years. Pakistan, China, even Russia. The regional powers weren’t going to allow the nation building. NATO would have to continue to fight their proxy.

You’d think it could have been more orderly and would have presumed months of civil war as the Afghan Government resisted. After Syria, would that have been better?

No good choices to end a failed mission and in the end, every day there made more Taliban enemies. The only thing that might have worked would be a partition.

 

There are plenty of ways a more orderly phased withdrawal, taking all those now at high risk (the interpreters etc) with us, could have been run

There are plenty of ideas for how to have structured a more permanent arrangement that were never tried

I don't accept there were no other options than cowardly running away leaving crowds of Afghans panicking on Kabul runway

Christ almighty the Dunkirk evacuation was more orderly than this

This was always about 2 idiot presidents one-upmanship during an election over who could end it quicker

 

You are having your cake and eating it here. As soon as Biden was elected you dismissed him as being the same old aggressive US imperialist. Now he’s withdrawing he should have drawn it out.

Yes it’s awful, but clearly they thought the Afghan army would resist and that would provide time. They wouldn’t have know the PM would immediately flee.

An orderly evacuation would have required someone to resist the Taliban advance. The US? More troops more lives and the only possible outcome is they run off after carnage on the outskirts of Kabul.

You and I wanted this to end and we have to own it.

 

I think Biden's speech is one of the most nauseating statements I've ever heard. Effectively saying we'll drop our allies like hot spuds as soon as they no longer benefit America's interests. Hopefully people will remember this the next time a US President tries to put together another posse to go after some bad guys.