Protest

I assume you're deliberately missing the point here....

 

You’re missing the point. When Watford were doing well 5 years ago the Udinese fans were protesting that the ownership were prioritising Watford and the quality of the squad was below par. We are now at that stage in my view.

As for their start, the ex Watford boys have been superb so far

 

I don't think this part is necessarily accurate. Someone did an investigation into transfers involving Bayat a while back and found that he was only the player's rep for 4 transfers, as I remember.

In all of the other situations he was acting at the club's agent. Whether or not that is a necessary or productive arrangement is another topic entirely, but it means we're not limited to the specific pool of players the Bayat directly represents.

I don't have the link to the article exploring the transfers involving Bayat to hand but I'm sure someone can produce it.

 

so why the hell couldn’t he find a decent RWB it probably does mean that we are paying more than we should as obv have to pay fees to two agents but can’t substantiate that

this was an interesting read albeit written by somebody that I don’t know and no idea if it’s all correct

https://luorns.substack.com/p/watford-and-mogi-bayat-a-match-made

 

Not sure if this was the article, but this was the LouOrns take:

https://twitter.com/louorns/status/1509781731095814145?lang=en-GB

 

My apologies for missing your point

 

I doubt he's doing the scouting for the players who he is representing the club for - blame the scouts for that one.

But yes, it would potentially go some distance towards explaining why our agents fees are higher compared to some.

Obviously it's difficult to know the "whys" of the situation, since we're not privy to those discussions, but I think we can make some reasonable guesses in certain cases. For example, for Samir's transfer the club may have wanted to ensure the transfer was "arms length" due to the family connection, and used Bayat for that purpose. But it's ultimately all guesswork; unless the club decides to clarify why they choose to use an agent to represent the club in so many transfers we'll never know for certain.

 

I would love the club to be better and like it was in the days of GT/Elton but it's never ever ever ever going to happen again. Football, the world and the people in it have changed too much.

All I want now is the best possible team we can have, and to win the first trophy in our entire history and to get some bragging rights over those ****s up the road as right now they beat us on every single footballing measure you can think of.

It seems to me that as we have owners who largely appoint dreadful managers, I am just thankful that we also have owners who sack people after 10 matches. For me, that's the best thing about our club right now, and I'm as serious as cancer. It's all we've got.

In a way I find your dream of a better club endearing, but then reality bites and I have no option but to brand you an aching simpleton for not seeing what's staring you in the face: ALL clubs, owners, managers, players in the modern game are utter ckunts.

 

I don’t agree I’m a simpleton but I’ll go along with it because I know it’s your style and I’ve always enjoyed reading! So I’ll accept it!

And I do agree with the overwhelming majority of what you’ve said - I’m just never going to accept it can’t be better than it is!

And I think you know that I’m probably the person on this forum who agrees most with your second paragraph! A trophy and overtaking that lot up the road is extremely high on my priority list. The fact that some people don’t get the rivalry or have any feelings about them is more offensive than people blindly backing Pozzo.

 

Why?

You may refer to Luton as "that lot up the road", but as someone who grew up a Watford fan in North London, it certainly wasn't "up the road" for me. I don't think I've ever met a Luton fan in my life, and the only time I've ever even been near it is to go to the airport. The place and the club basically never featured on my life's radar.

Our rivalry with them has near enough zero meaning or relevance for me beyond my being aware that there are other Watford fans who for whatever reason attach a major significance to it.

 

We are all simpletons for supporting this great club. Ultimately it's stupidity that unites us all,

 

This 'expendable head coach' or european model is an excuse spread originally by Duxbury, I believe, and repeated by fans without checking it. Here's some research based on Serie A (seems the most likely model we're using) for your reference:

In 3 years (since the return of QSF) Watford have had 10 head coaches:

• Serie A maximum = 6 coaches (Cremonese)
• Serie A average = 3.3 coaches

So no, we are not copying the 'european model' where it's normal to have such a high turnover. Please stop repeating this, it's another of the made up justifications they feed us. Rule of thumb for future reference, if Scott Duxbury says it, assume it's not true.

 

What do we want?
Transition to a more stable model but patience to find the right investors!
When do we want it?
Within the next 5 years!

 

I didn't mention a "European model" and have no idea what Duxbury has said on the subject or why you think it's a "made up justification they feed us" ?
I referred only to the Pozzo's history of being quick to change manager when results dip. The Pozzos had a high turnover rate of coaches at Udinese until they stumbled upon a successful one (and a bunch of our players following our relegation). The same model as here. As soon as they find a successful coach they stick with him....until he hits a sticky spell. We've always known this and it has on the whole been successful to make the change (less so in the last 2 relegation seasons).

 

So why did you switch between the Pozzo model and compare it to 'English sides'? Are you not, extremely blatantly, saying that it's not an english model? Okay, strictly speaking you didn't say European and I potentially incorrectly added that but I figured European was a safe bet. My apologies for jumping to conclusions. Would you like me to get the stats for the Sudanese league?

For reference, Udinese have never sacked 10 managers in 3 years either, so that one also doesn't add up.

I'll be honest, I can't really be bothered with a long back and forth - the politics section proved what a waste of energy that is, we're not going to sway each other, only the club can do that. But I will say you don't have to be staunchly in one camp. I dislike the way they run the club, but I do appreciate the things they did during Covid, the honouring of Graham Taylor, the enabling of a singing section and the reasonable season ticket prices. It doesn't need to be all or nothing, not everything needs defending (or criticising, in my case).

 

Sounds a bit like someone has come up with a good rebuttal of your points - and rather than just admit as much, you're continuing to wriggle.

@scummybear has clearly highlighted the inconsistencies in what you've said but now you're just doubling down on semantics rather than being generous enough to admit as much.

 

That’s an interesting viewpoint. I was brought up in Eastcote, so I could be said to have had a similar experience to you. QPR fans were the ones I came into contact with, so that ‘derby’ was of significance to me but I soon learnt that those against L*t*n were the real ones. This feeling was firmed up for me in the 80s when we were in the same division as them for a long period, were even promoted together and had multiple cup ties against them. The rivalry was very close in the Taylor Pleat years - were you not around then? If you don’t share the feeling about them that others do, is there another club where it feels like a special game when we play them, or are all fixtures just like playing Stoke or Rotherham to you? (Please don’t say Bournemouth.)

 

Damning stats for sure .

Do you have a source for those ?

 

Any serious attempt at protest would fall like a brick the moment someone tells the so called ‘protestors’ they have to leave the comfort of their keyboard and actually engage with the real world outside.

 

It sounds like we are pretty much in agreement. I would like to change the way they run the club but appreciate the good they have done too. Like you, I don’t believe you need to be staunchly in one camp or another like some.
ps I see where you got confused about “European”. I was simply trying to say that the Pozzos operate differently to most English sides as they have always been quick to turnover managers. Udinese too, though not so much recently as they have been relatively successful.

 

See post just now. I contrasted Pozzo record, not European record, with most English teams. High turnover and more disposable “coach” rather than “manager” that exerts more control over recruitment etc.

 

https://theathletic.com/3223559/202...eague-spent-272m-agents-fees-transfers/?amp=1

 

Chelsea are considered to have a high turnover of coaches and their average tenure is 18 months. Ours is now about 10 games. That isn’t a ‘model’ by any measure, it’s just desperate firefighting, exacerbated by poor recruitment but without the ability to recognise the poor recruitment.

 

Yes any comparison with Chelsea is of course a little meaningless. They have a high turnover for the biggest clubs, we have a high turnover for smaller clubs. Its just the way Pozzos work, coaches don't get a lot of time to prove themselves. All appointments and sackings are of course open to debate/criticism. The only recent appointments that seemed poor at the outset were Munoz and Hodgson, with Munoz going on to be a success initially. The only recent sacking I disagreed with was Gracia. I think the recruitment this summer has been good.

 

It’s only a pointless comparison because you’ve decided it is to suit your weird narrative.

 

No, you're right. We are just like Chelsea .
Our recruitment in the summer was poorer than theirs too.

 

Chelsea are a football club, they have a high turnover of manager for a football club at 18 months, you’ve just bizarrely decided the Pozzo model is in line with smaller clubs, and in fact we’re now just adopting the smaller club model, which in fact only exists in your head.

 

What are you saying ?? I've never said "we are in line with smaller clubs" and that we are adopting "the smaller club model". Those facts seem to exist in your head.
As always when you are losing an argument you decide instead to argue against the position you wish the other person had taken. All I've said is that we hire and fire "coaches" more frequently than most english clubs hire and fire "managers". You then made the comparison to Chelsea. Jumbo and I have plenty of disagreements but at least try to understand the other's views even if we don't agree with them. Debating with you is close to impossible.

 

I am not losing an argument tut, I would’ve thought the 4/5 posters in agreement with me would confirm that.

 

I agree that the only sacking to really disagree with, based on the team’s performance, was Gracia, but you surely have to balance that against the poor recruitment of managers which results in the need for these sackings. If nothing else, the compensation payments must be detrimental to the club finances so why not take a bit more care in finding the right manager? Having said that, I had no real problem with the one coach per season, or so, model where they were recruited for a specific purpose (e.g. QSF to keep us up in the PL in the first season). It’s the thrashing around in recent years where it seems to have come off the rails and now just looks desperate.

 

Thanks for that Halfway.

Doesn’t look good at all .

Although it said we made a lot of transfers the actual accumulation of money spent was low as they were mainly cheapies , apart from Louza but even 10 mill is peanuts in the EPL so to be the 7th highest on agent fees is not good

 

No, I wasn't even born yet.

Most of my friends growing up were Arsenal fans, but they have generally been too far ahead of us for us to play them that often, or for the games to feel that competitive when we did come up against them.

It is hard to deny that in recent history games against Bournemouth have carried a bit more of an edge than the likes of Stoke and Rotherham, but that's also not to say that the clubs will remain mini-rivals for many years to come.

 

Just consider Bayat's links to Watford's parent company, and the possibility of money being funnelled by him to somewhere else on Pozzo's behalf, and it might make a bit more sense.

 

Regarding the turnover of coaches, I don't think comparing to other countries really makes much sense, or other clubs in general really. We're in a uniquely ***** position.

We've gone down, come up, gone down and are now trying to claw our way back. Only Norwich are in a comparable situation, but they haven't spent anywhere near what we have

I don't agree with it or like it, but until we find a way out of this 3 year tail spin, Gino will continue to sack anyone not making progress