I knew this would happen. I didn't know we were going to lose, but for some reason I had a hunch Deeney wouldn't score.
Of course the most important question no one has yet address is what the fook happened to Z Cars yesterday? Two for the price of one.
I had a word with them and told them to play Let's Work Together instead. Then they f.cked up big time. Surprisingly Z-Cars came over loud and clear on the FLS. So what is this is all about?
I think one of the PA numpties hit the button too early so we had a run through of the whole tune before the players even emerged. 424 was right though...like automatons people rose as one to clap absolutely nothing for a good 90 seconds. Clearly it does have an effect.
OK. As far as I'm concerned the longer we all get on the 'Orns cause the better. If you've gotta clap twice then so what? I may sound like a stuck record - but as far as I'm concerned Let's Work Together is just what our club's all about and if you think I'm hijacking this thread to deliver the same message then so be it. Play it before Z-Cars then. That's fine. I have never been more convinced of anything in my life. Normally I'm an objective kinda guy - but not over this. Just play the damned thing.
Yes, Cathcart was great, and apart from the first 5 minutes after he came on so was Angella, who's not normally one of my favourites. My son suggested that the reason the otherwise excellent Motta's crosses were so poor was that he didn't trust himself to be fit enough to get to the byline and cross from there, so opted for Gibbs-style diagonal crosses instead. Sounds plausible to me. Since Motta has so far been the best right back I've ever seen at Watford (going back to GT's first season), I can't believe that he's unable to put in a decent cross.
Yep, thrashed by one of the top three yesterday, their other main rival still to play away from home, Boro fans must be even more nervous than us.
I was taking the mick. It was cringeworthy yesterday. It's only when you hear Z Cars without the players coming out at the same time to distract you that you realise how odd it is.
One thing about us that really pisses me off and was especially bad yesterday is throw ins. We're awful from them, i'd say at least 50% of the time they lead to us needlessly giving the ball away!
We shouldn't have over committed in the final minutes. A draw is good enough, with the position we were in. It's nothing to do with hindsight, it was obvious at the time. Pushing an extra couple of players forward rarely works. It is more likely you will get picked off on a break away once the ball is cleared. Ipswich dealt with everything we had to offer going forward comfortably. It's highly unlikely we were suddenly going to open them up in the final 30 seconds if we couldn't do it in the preceding hour and a half. As a percentage risk, it's more likely you will concede a goal rather than score one if you take this type of gamble. You have to understand the nature of the match. Was it an open game with plenty of chances? No.....it was a nothing game with no chances. It was not like the Bolton game at all and you have to understand the difference with how the game is. You have to be able to read the nature of the game. The last time we went top, we went on to lose the next 4 games. With Derby and Middlesbrough next up, we could see a similar run unfold. I was just very disappointed to see us take a ridiculous risk to try and win the game, when a point would have been enough to keep us ticking over.
In fairness to HB1, Joka said pretty much the same thing after the match (though not as eloquently!). He basically admitted he got the tactics wrong. But I still think he was right to attack. We were at home to an out of form opponent and we were on a great run. I fully appreciate that a point would have been alright but... Joking apart, I wonder if our lack of draws recently subconsciously came into our thinking. As we've had only 1 draw in something like 24 matches now I wonder if we've just lost the knack or the idea of playing for one when victory is unlikely. It was a match of fine margins. Had Ighalo put away his chance, which he probably could have done blindfolded before his hamstring injury, we're 1-0 up and no need to over-commit.
I agree, we should be on the front foot and attack, but not recklessly. This is the point I'm making. Trying to win the game, does not mean over committing yourself. We are at the stage of the season where mistakes are going to be costly. Games are running out and whoever makes the least mistakes will go up. We are still in the box seat, but we now have no margin for error. I probably wouldn't feel quite so bad about yesterday's defeat if we gave it a good go and created plenty of chances. But these games always play out the same way. We find it incredibly difficult to have any impact and with the next two fixtures we're going to have to do something we've not done all season, and impose ourselves on a top 6 side.
Do you think there's any validity in my point about our lack of draws this season? We've had so few, we've become a win or lose side, and I just wonder if we've almost 'forgotten' how to? Btw lets not re-write history..we've done the double over Brentford this season..a top 6 side. The win at theirs was a very impressive effort. And we fought back well to earn a point at Boro, which could have been more as I recall Deeney missing a decent chance to win it. Derby are on a run of 7 without a win, while Boro were thumped yesterday. There will never be a better time for us to play both!
Brentford was a different kettle of fish. When we played them the first time they were below mid-table and finding their feet in the league. They then went on a fantastic run which propelled them up the table. The second time we played them they had a man sent off early enough in the match to make a difference and allow us space to play. Even then they took the lead. We just managed to wear them down in the end because of our numerical advantage. It was a perfect time to play Ipswich as well. They were on a poor run of form and had lots of injuries, yet we still couldn't manage a single shot on target. Derby will now have a chance to regroup, rest and get back a couple of key players. They will see this as a chance to draw a line in the sand and go at us full guns blazing in front of the camera's on a Friday evening. I know we will have an equal amount of time to rest, but I just think this plays out better for Derby than us. Until I see us play one of the top sides and impose ourselves, causing them problems and look the more likely to win, then I find it hard to think any differently. To think differently is just hoping without any real evidence to back it up.
You can't just discount a side because we beat them. We completely outplayed them before the sending off
So you're discounting Brentford because they had an early man sent off? (we were on top at the time anyway, and the sending off actually unsettled us) We may as well discount Bournemouth and Norwich away then.
You're moving the goalposts!! We won at Brentford when they were top 6. Granted, we have a poor record against the top sides, but people shouldn't downplay the few decent results we did have! Ipswich did win their last match before yesterday 1-0. Again granted they'd been on a bad run and were soundly beaten at Boro last weekend, but they did get back to winning ways midweek. I am nervous of the fact Derby have 2 weeks to re-group, and Bent will be fit (I don't know about Martin) which was why I posted my thread about the International Break. But it's also worth noting we've followed up each of our last 5 defeats with a win, and 4 of those wins were heavy ones too. An omen hopefully. We do bounce back well. We all know we haven't got a great record against the top teams and we'll have that fact repeatedly rammed down our throats for the next 2 long weeks. What we also know is we've won more games than anybody in the league and we've beaten nearly all the bottom half sides at least once. So you don't read many people saying 'I'm nervous we might lose at Millwall or at home to Sheff Wed or Brum'. So it's swings and roundabouts! How I see it is IF we do summon 2 big performances over Easter, we'll be in a decent position to go up and we'll deserve it. If we **** up both games over Easter, most likely we'll fall just short of the top 2 and not quite be good enough. But I'm looking forward to finding out!
I have not discounted Brentford.....I just explained the mitigating circumstances of both matches. We were never in with a chance of beating Ipswich over two matches, Norwich over two matches, Derby, Wolves, Middlesbrough or Bournemouth over two games.
From the BBC report of our draw at Boro.. Deeney's introduction galvanised Watford and he equalised just after the hour, converting Anya's pass from the byline. The Hornets then hit the post after Tozser's set-piece was headed against the upright by Ekstrand, So only the woodwork denied us victory there. And when we beat Brentford at home, Garcia had just quit. It was McKinlay's first match in charge. So actually there would have been mitigating circumstances had we NOT won! But we did. I'm not arguing for arguing sake. I accept you're right that we do have a bad record against top sides. But I hate seeing history re-written. We've also become ruthless at beating weaker sides, unlike the costly slip ups under Zola. I think it only right people acknowledge that as 4 of our remaining 7 matches are against lower half opponents.
Ok.....here are our results: Norwich (a) 0-3 L Norwich (h) 0-3 L Ipswich (a) 0-1 L Ipswich (h) 0-1 L Derby (h) 1-2 L Middlesbrough (a) 1-1 D Bournemouth (h) 1-1 D Bournemouth (a) 0-2 L Brentford (h) 2-1 W Brentford (a) 2-1 W Wolves (h) 0-1 L Wolves (a) 2-2 D P 12, W 2, D 3, L 7 F 9 A 19 Pts 9 Compare that to the form we've showed against the rest of the league....9th and below. P 27 W 20 D 3 L 4 F 67 A 27 Pts 63 It's the results we've had against the sides currently in the top 8, which is holding us back. It's fairly conclusive evidence to say we struggle against this type of team.
Yes....shots off target don't actually win you games. I could have played in goal for Ipswich yesterday and kept a clean sheet. Ipswich had two on target shots which produced good saves from Gomes before their goal. It was an even game, but if anyone was going to win it, it was our opponents.
You said "we were never in with a chance". That was a chance. You make it sound like we never left our own half all game long.
Nobody is denying we have a poor record against top sides. But as I say, let's at least give us credit for the FEW times we have done well. And let's also acknowledge we play 3 sides in the top half, and 4 in the bottom (ish). So while we're nervous of playing Derby, Boro etc, we should realise we've come a long way since Zola's season where the mere sight of a bottom club sent us into panic!
9 points from those 12 matches is an underachievement, so is not really worthy of too much credit. What we have done against the rest of the league is exceptional, as is deserving of huge credit. If we do not make the automatics, then it will down to our failings against the top 8 which has prevented this. Our failings against this sort of team will become even more apparent, if end up in the playoffs.
I'm honestly not sure you're reading peoples' replies properly. Nobody is denying we have a poor record against the top sides. Your excellent stats prove that. You argue your points well, as always. What I replied to you about, and others have done too, is to say please don't sweep the few decent wins/performances we've had against the better sides under the carpet! You can't say 'oh we only beat Brentford because..' or say we never had a sniff of victory up at Boro when we hit the post! A fairer summary would be 'we did beat Brentford twice but sadly those were isolated victories and not true of our form overall'.
Interesting match, both teams were pretty poor and both didn't look like automatic contenders. Thankfully, even if our poor form continues against the top teams and we lose to both Derby and Boro we'll still at least be in the playoffs - what a fabulous position to be in at this point of the season.
If I didn't word it to your liking, then so be it. My point is....before it gets taken off track as always, is that we struggle against sides in the top 8. Everyone can see that. For some reason I have to pay homage to the double over Brentford, the post we hit at Middlesbrough or the "chance" Ighalo put over the bar against Ipswich. It's really clutching at straws and is just papering over a problem the side has. It's a real problem we have overcoming sides in the top 8 and it's something we MUST sort out, and sort out fast......or we will find it hard to gain promotion.
over 24 hours on and im still absolutely amazed anyone on the coaching team, let alone joka, thought it would be a good time to put layun back in. the guy needs a number of games to get used to the championship (if he ever will) and our run in is not the time or place imo.
Your stats back you up. Nobody is disagreeing. We do have a very poor record and sadly chances are it might cost us. There was just no need to try and denigrate the one really good win we have had away to a current top 6 side. The win that night was a decent victory and a key part of the good run we've been on lately. Your point about us being generally poor is still totally valid despite that result. It was an isolated victory, and a pity we haven't had more of them. Incidentally, I'm sure that on some of the discussions on here about biased/incompetent refs, the officials got a large part of the blame for the defeats against Bournemouth and Norwich.
The win at Brentford was excellent, but circumstantial. Had it been 11 v 11 I'm not so sure we would have won, but it's taking away from the main point I was making. Our form against sides in the top 8 could well be our undoing this season. If we go to Derby and they have a man sent off and we get awarded a penalty, then I will fancy our chances, but with all being equal, then I do not.
