Stadium Expansion

This is what I don't get. The idea we will go down and go back to 15,000 is almost taken as a certainty. It will be a self-fulfilling prophecy it we stay as we are. Without expansion I believe our stay in the Premier league could well be a short one.

With expansion, we will look the part and look like we belong in the top flight. It's not a vanity project, but it's a statement of intent.

IMO, the only way we would potentially become a regular Championship club or lower, is when Gino decides to sell up. Anything can happen then, but if we are an established EPL club by then, with a stadium to match, then the next owner will more likely be a good one, rather than a Bassini chancer.

 

Exactly. It's backward thinking to not expand because of the thought one day we might get relegated. People who think like that never achieve anything. The Pozzo family are very forward thinking, but not reckless. This is a perfect balance and they are very shrewd with this sort of judgement.

The club will look at the most cost effective way to expand the ground. If we stay up this season, then money from next season will be put aside for this project. The East stand is an easy target to expand. They built this stand with the view to being expanded. It was designed that way, so will be a relatively easy project to complete. The biggest stumbling block maybe the council, rather than the club's finances.

Of course the GT stand will be more problematic, but I believe that won't be tackled until the end of 2018-19 at the earliest.

 

As Sunderland, Newcastle, Charlton, Blackburn & Coventry all proved

History and facts tell you that you get lower gates in the Championship than in the Premier league, so its not so much a idea that we would o back to 15 or 16,000 but a fairy high certainty. Even in 2015 when we were promoted we only averaged 16,500. http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/watf.htm

At the moment we aren't a secure establish premier league side. Until Silva went there was a very real danger of us dropping down the table and out of the league. I think most realistic and level headed supporters will recognise that we are where we are because there have been worse teams than us, rather than us being good enough to be established. Last season was a real testament to that, we survived by two results and with a worse goal difference of one of the relegated teams.

Yes we all want better facilities, yes a nice new shiny stadium would be fantastic, the EJ stand in comparison to the monstrosity that was there before is magnificent, but we have space to increase the capacity within the stadium at the moment and with some good ticketing management have the capability of releasing filling at least 1500 to 2000 seats within the current capacity.

Realistically if we increased our capacity to 25,000 we would only fill the stadium 2 or 3 times a season. They can dream of having a 30,000 seater stadium all they like, but the reality is that they will never ever fill it.

 

Another excellent, well researched post HB.. you've excelled recently!

As someone who follows stadium development closely i have seen most of these numbers quoted at one time or another. Some of these are in the offing.. some might happen.. and some are complete pie in the sky!


One thing though. Ive wondered, especially in recent years, where the financial reward for expanding capacity really comes from. For instance our gate receipts are around £8-9M a season i believe. Say we increased capacity by a third.. that would mean a max of £3m per season. Perhaps a little more with new corporate facilities but i can't imagine so much more. That's chicken feed in today's game.. compared with tv money for instance.. or players wages! Also you'd have to offset what it cost to construct.. 10-20 Million perhaps? It could take decades just to recoup the outlay.
It seems to me that apart from the really big clubs/stadiums the potential financial profit from increasing capacity/average attendance is minimal.
So it makes me think that clubs like ours are thinking only in terms of satisfying demand.. and maybe, as youve also pointed out, the prestige of keeping up with everyone else.

Thought?

 

Like HB1 has said and like Dux said at the "At our place". The expansion isn't there for revenue gains from the traffic passing through. But rather teh revenue gained from a better atmosphere lending hopefully a better return on the field and thus leading to higher prize gains. Also a more upmarket prestigeous looking stadium can attract a higher calibre player, which again could lend itself to a higher return on the pitch. It isn't seen as a revenue income but more of a an aid to recruitment and performance. Also sponsors and investors who can be offered more facilities in return for more of their monies would be a gain for the club. I think people see the expansion too much from the old pre sky tv money era of more seats = more ticket = more sales = more money. The revenue from seats is peanuts now to a prem clubs income. However if we were to go down and could still get a higher gate return then all of a sudden it is far more important again. So in the view to being relegated it could actually help us rather than hinder us.

 

Personally, I'd love to see a 30k stadium on the Vicarage Road site. What the Pozzo's have done to the ground has been nothing short of magnificent, and I think it looks great. I don't know how they'll achieve it - but if they are determined to do so, they will. I shall just sit back and look forward to seeing what they come up with.

The Pozzo's have made a few mistakes - but they've been very good in rectifying them quickly (with the possible exception of our left back situation). I'm sure once the stadium expansion is completed, we'll all wonder what the fuss was about.

 

Yeah was thinking in those terms.. everything geared to sustaining Premier league status and looking like you belong there.
I think for some of the larger clubs the increase in revenue is significant.. like Arsenals move to the Emirates for instance. For the rest of us it's just keeping up with the Joneses.
For those below Prem level any increase in revenue is much needed of course.. but it must take a long time to recoup the money spent on ground improvements. Unless it helps you get to the Premiership promised land of course.

 

I understand what you're saying, and I agree, if we go down attendance would drop. I also agree we are not an established Premier league club yet either. Even this season we are still looking over our shoulder, especially if we lose today's match.

However, expanding the stadium gives something that no one has mentioned yet, and that's inspiration. As a fan, there was nothing more subduing than turning up to Vicarage Road with only 3 stands!!. It caused problems for motivating everyone. It was hard for the players and hard for the fans. It was a bit if an embarrassment if truth be told.

Now, when you are in the Premier League, you need to take advantage of every bit of inspiration you can get. Watford will never be one of the top six. Even SD has admitted that's beyond a club like Watford. But there's no reason we cannot be 7th. There are a lot of big clubs that have far better potential of being that 7th placed club, but if Watford are clever and do things in a way others don't think of, then Watford have a perfect opportunity.

Let's be honest. Should Watford be a Premier League club? Probably not. Certainly not under the previous ownership. Our status has been raised because of careful and smart ownership. Now that is not permanent, as a couple of relegations would testify, but if we expand, it tells everyone that Watford should be a top tier club. Once you become established and invest in the infrastructure, it becomes a permanent status in what people think of that club.

I think of Villa, Sunderland, Wolves, Leeds, Forest as Premier league clubs in waiting. Why? It's because of their stadia, and past achievements in the game. It's all about perception.

A bigger stadium inspires people. Fans enjoy the experience more, players become more motivated and that can only lead to positive things. I believe this is the thought process behind the decision.

 

Absolutely correct. This is my reading of the situation too. Forget the Emirates or White Hart Lane, we need to keep an eye on clubs like Palace, Fulham, Ipswich, Norwich, Reading, Swansea, Hull, QPR. We are a club similar in size to those I've mentioned....IMO.

We have to be on a par, at least, with those clubs. These are clubs that regularly frequent the Premier league and we have to be completive when they are in the top league, as they will be our rivals when trying to attract players.

If we look the part, we feel the part. That goes for everyone. Fans, players, media and the football world in general when they think of Watford. We won't be the joke side that is punching above its weight anymore.

 

I agree, in as much that even when we are sold out now, the stadium is never full. But, with sustained success over a number of years we will be able to have a much larger attendance on a regular basis. I think it's key that we complete the next stage asap for many of the reasons given above and also whilst our income dwarfs building costs.

 

On a note related to this thread, the government have decided to come down against rail seats:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43701400

I'd say that's the idea kicked well into the long grass until after the next election.

 

What has a supermarket chain building a new store got to do with increasing the capacity of a football club to 30k ?
Of course the owners will consider the impact if we were to be relegated
Of course they will consider the cost vs benefit. The cost side is easy (relatively). The benefit side is complicated as financially it will depend what league we are in over the next 5 years. I expect they will to an extent decide to take a punt which means the increase won't necessarily pay for itself in the short term but will provide other non-tangible benefits such as the general perception of the club.

 

Waiting until the current stadium is full on a regular basis before expanding. Is just daft. It is about potential, not "current". I know several people who would love to go to the Vic more often, if only it was easier to get a ticket, or several tickets together. I also would go about 8 to 10 times a year.

It will also always be the case that season tickets will not get used every week, people have busy lives, causing empty seats.

I have little doubt that, from our massive catchment area, we would get close to 30,000 every game after a couple of seasons in a bigger stadium, providing we present an enjoyable matchday experience that includes a positive and enterprising approach to the game.

 

Out of interest (we live in Texas) I looked up tickets for the Bournemouth and Burnley games to see how easy it would be to get 3 together should we ever be over there again during the season. I couldn't find anywhere to get 3 together. Then I watch both games on TV and there were scores of empty seats, many with up to eight seats available together - and not in the restricted view areas.

It seems that the ticketing situation is a bloody shambles. I'd fix that before adding more seats.

 

It's an analogy to demonstrate a simple business principle, if you can't understand that it's pointless me answering any of your other questions...

 

It's not a very good analogy to be fair. It's one thing Sainsburys closing a few unprofitable stores. What are we going to do if a new or bigger ground goes **** up? Close the club?

 

Every home game, I look at the hundreds of no shows in the SEJ, I wonder how adding 5,000 to 10,000 extra seats makes sense. No doubt tickets sold is ok for the profit and loss account but the point of expansion is to give us a tactical advantage. So taking into account t the fact that a big capacity means more away fans too. Any expansion must not mean more season ticket holders. We need more headroom to grow a younger more raucous crowd. We need to fund capacity improvements, and would expect more hospitality package high price seats to turn up in the UGT, displacing current ticket holders into some of the new space. A bigger capacity will mean more accessible seats and wheelchair spaces. (As an aside why is it assumed that a wheelchair space user can't afford prices in line with other prices?) All in all the aim of getting a competitive advantage from a bigger stadium will also mean quite a lot of relocation of existing seat holders. Far more than just the Rookery.

 

I can't understand why they don't put seating in the corner between the Rookery and S.E.J. stands,, similar to the ones they have put in the corner of the Vic Rd and S.E.J. stands. I would have thought that space would lend itself to quite a few hundred, not interfere with other seating whilst being built and be quite easy to do!

 

They need an entrance for vehicles into the stadium (either emergency vehicles or just diggers for the pitch) and that's it I believe. They also have the match control box there still I think. Plus the flats enclose it from the back on each side so it would have to be a very basic structure.

 

Every club has no shows. Supporters do have periods of sickness, family holidays and other family commitments. The constant changing of match dates due to Sky/BT doesn't help. Season ticket holders even sadly die during the year.

If every season ticket holder misses on average 2 games a season for the above reasons, the crowd will be 10% short each match.

 

How many season ticket holders are there exactly? I ask because I highly doubt the validity of your last line.

 

Number of season ticket holders doesn't matter, there are 19 matches if you miss two that's roughly 10% (of season ticket holders obviously). Assuming the two matches missed are spread evenly between which fans and which matches.

 

Expanding capacity will allow the extra 3000 on the season ticket waiting list to be accommodated and will also allow those wanting to see a game as a group or family to buy tickets. As a season ticket holder with others on either side have no chance of bringing friends or family to a game.

 

Except you said the crowd will be 10% short each match. Saying season ticket attendees are 10% fewer than holders is something quite a bit different.

It's well documented that over 3000 ticket holders, season or otherwise, miss each and every match https://www.hertfordshiremercury.co...news/revealed-how-many-watford-ticket-1076668 but to my knowledge there's been no publicly made analysis of why and where. The best most of us here are able is to see the where and guess the why.

The Family Stand is the biggest culprit. We even had one poster on here openly admitting he had something like three season tickets there but he had no kids, he just upgraded the child tickets to adults when he went with mates (or sold them to West Ham fans).

 

I didn't say it, @Oscar calling did, I just provided a guess of how he thinks it's 10%.

 

Yes, my apologies...just sort of followed one post on to the other without looking at the avatar

 

Back in the days of terracing, attendances could be small, average or large from one game to the next depending on many factors (opposition, recent form etc.), including the weather. People who were not the most committed fans could decide on the day they fancied going to the football. Now everyone attending effectively has to be a registered Watford fan and the vast majority are season ticket holders. This means we have a much more fixed number of people eligible to attend a given match and there's a much greater barrier to anyone else filling their places when they cannot make it.
The club says there are about 2,400 tickets available to non season ticket holders for each game. If and when the stadium is expanded I think they would have to clear the 3,000 or so on the waiting list for

season tickets but they should keep the rest for 'occasional' fans, although I'm sure they would still have to be on the database.​

 

Slightly off topic regarding the current chat here - but our recent "account suspended" super drone, iAmAHornet, has re-emerged as FutureBleeps: https://twitter.com/FutureBleeps (even if the account appears to be older than the previous one).

Looking at the latest aerial pic, it does show quite well how much room there is on the hospital side of the ground - provided they are happy to cooperate (which I understand they are according to bits and pieces I've read recently). Shame about those stupid apartments though:

 

I'm trying to make sense of this (really - average away attendance of 35888?) but it looks like our "attendence - I'm assuming this has to include ST "no-shows" as attendees - is pretty "constant". Do we really have the 2nd smallest ground in the PL?

 

Presumably, the average attendance of all the games where we've been the away team?

 

The smaller teams will have a disproportionately higher average away attendance anyway surely? The bigger teams, with the bigger crowds wouldn't be including their own attendances amongst their away games.

That said, there really appears to be no pattern or correlation between the size of club and away attendances so I either doubt the veracity of the figures or I don't really care anyway.

 

Didn't SD say this close season would be where we would increase the stadium capacity? There doesn't seem to be much going on in regards to this at the moment.

 

It's not happening this summer. They're still doing adaptions for disabled supporters that don't exist.

 

Not existing is the most serious of all disabilities and it's typical of the Tory party that they're doing nothing to address this issue.

 

It's to do with the fluctuations of Spurs attendances at Wembley. They got large crowds vs Bournemouth & Leicester for instance (Both are high in that table) and their lowest crowd was against WHU (who are bottom of the table)
No other club had such a swing in attendance figures.
PS Ours is correct.