Stadium Expansion

Oh I agree with all the above. Basically just a bigger VR would be ideal... but I don’t agree with the parking. If we are getting a new ground, we should all get free hoverboards too.

 

I believe a "lap" strategy is required which will enable 2 supporters to use one seat.
The supporter providing the lap gets a 10% discount. Instantly we can get to 30k without any further investment.

 

I'm not sitting on Barry's lap for any money!

 

OK. So he sits on yours ?

 

I think this is the Vicarage Road equivalent of Scylla and Charybdis!

 

Tricky then ? Maybe try a half each ? Or to make it interesting, swap every time there's a corner ?

 

Does it come with wafers?

 

Or every time we make a defensive error, one fan walks out and another can come in? No need to modify the stadium at all and we’d get record crowds.

 

That's a bit of an odd list HB1. Most of those numbers are aspirational by the clubs concerned. Even Luton, who you specifically mention, are only building 17500 upfront (if they get planning permission). Sunderland have just closed a whole tier of their stadium. QPR have been talking about 40000 for ages. And I don't think Man Utd have any serious plans to go to 90000 any time soon.

 

That sounds a little like 'The Infinite Hotel Paradox' -



Maybe that could be adapted to 'The Infinite Football Stadium Paradox'?

 

This is what I found out by looking on the net. Not sure how accurate the entire list is, but this web page confirms the figures.

http://www.footballgroundguide.com/about-the-author/developments.html

The point is, a lot of clubs are upgrading capacity. We cannot afford to be left behind and it's imperative we expand Vicarage Road or move to another location.

I personally wouldn't be against moving, but it would cost the club a fortune. £80-100m I expect. Just extending the SEJ and GT stands would be a lot cheaper and would still achieve the capacity we would like.

I think the threat of having to move, is something Thornhill has thrown into the mix to help the club get the permission is needs. If we were looking to move ground we wouldn't have developed as much of the stadium as we have. I think the threat is a little unfounded.

 

http://pa.watford.gov.uk/publicaccess/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=P6NNUAQWL3P00

planning submitted for the statue yesterday

 

Whilst I understand that building costs have risen, it’s still mad to think that the Millenium/Principality Stadium only cost £121m. Less than 10% of Wembley and superior in every way for the fans. Surely we could build a mini one of those these days for £50m???

 

We'll pass over the 3 year old aspect.

Fantastic development!

I want to see that 3 year old under concrete.

 

It’s not just about seats, having elbow room to max out corporate entertainment will be a factor in the clubs thinking. I recall the numbers for Liverpool’s new stand were something like +£20m a year. We’re not in that league but even if we’re half that it’s still serious numbers.

 

It's funny you know.. it seems that whenever things get active on this thread the WO suddenly carries stories about stadium developments. Yesterday they had an article about what Duxberry had said during the ‘At Our Place’ event and today this. Are they spying on us?!

PS A few daft comments under the article.. as ever with the WO. Talking of which i'd just like to thank those who have contributed to this thread (and the history one) these past couple of days. There's been some fantastic input from many contributors and it's been an interesting read.

 

Surely one other point about relocation is about cash flow and managing borrowing while ring fencing investment in the playing squad, through a 3 to 4 year period. The whole point is apparently to give us a tactical advantage in future seasons in the Premier League. To relocate you have to find a site and borrow the money to buy it, build the stadium and pay for any infrastructure improvements the planners require. Move out of Watford itself and you may have a hostile planning process. MK Dons were accepted because the local council wanted a professional football club in their council area. But not every community would want a new Watford Stadium landing in their borough. You might have spent money securing a site and be unable to start building for a couple of years. Presumably we would need to stay within the M25, so sites won't be cheap. Having borrowed all that cash, you need to pay it back through selling your old ground, corporate sponsorship and increased match day revenue. Is that guaranteed to at a minimum be cost neutral? Other options could include a temporary relocation while a complete overhaul of Vicarage Road occurred. Or to enable the existing ground to be sold and redeveloped while at the same time building new stadium on the site you have secured. Wembley is too big and expensive. The MK Stadium sems to far in the wrong direction. As the idea is to have a bigger better Stadium that helps maintain Premier League status. I can see why growing on Vicarage Road is a better, quicker, safer and cheaper option than relocation. Did the club think about buying the old Watford printers factory? That would be a strategic piece of land you could use in mitigation if you needed to reconfigure the land around Occupation road for a build SEJ stand and better circulation space. The lower half of occupation Road is presumably to disappear with the development of the allotment land.

 

Some daft but one caught my eye...there are probably numerous facilities the hospital and club could share, not least of all parking. IF an underground car park could be built under the Vic that the hospital could use it would free up some considerable space within the hospital grounds. Relocate the buildings adjacent to the SEJ to the freed up car parking spaces and we might have a viable solution. I'm sure admin offices, catering, generators and a whole host of other areas could be shared to free up space.

 

Not sure what was on my mind when I typed adjacent to SEJ; I meant adjacent to the GT of course.

 

Mayor : Yeah we need a bigger stadium, I'm a fan, now give me that ******* land

 

I can't help wondering if an awful lot of the names at the top of the list are little more than "White Elephant" stadia when the only chance of filling them will be World Cups, Euro, Champions League/Europa cup finals...50K at Wolves/38K at Reading...seriously?

 

It would be a pretty difficult business case to justify significant expenditure given the constant uncertainty over future revenues. Lets not kid ourselves, at some point we will be relegated and revenues will be slashed with no guarantee we will immediately return. Could be next season, could be 5-10 seasons time. To spend massive sums to get us to 30,000 would be a high risk strategy given our revenues in 2-3 years time could be a fraction of what they are today.

 

When Southampton got relegated to League 1 about 10 years ago, to save costs they closed a large percentage of the stadium.

One day we will go down, and attendances will probably return to the 15k mark. I should think that 25k would be a decent size with provision for further expansion.

 

When Cardiff were last up they spent all season building a new tier on top of one of their side stands. They then got relegated and promptly closed it as soon as they'd done the grand opening.

 

These figures, in quite a few cases, represent what the club would do if they become an established EPL club. Basically if they were in the position we are in after 3 continual years in the Premier league. In the case of Ipswich, they would increase to 40,000 if they became an established top tier club. I think that is the case for the likes of Wolves, Sheff Utd, Derby, Reading etc.

 

For me, that just represents negative thinking. To say we shouldn't expand in case we get relegated one day is not the way to go about it. If we don't expand then I think that would increase the likelihood of relegation.

Good players want to play in nice stadiums. Don't think that's a misnomer, as I know it does have a baring when a player looks to join a new club. Having a bigger stadium that looks Premier League, certainly would not be a detraction.

I think this is the thinking behind these expansion plans. It would of course increase revenue, but that's not the driving factor. I don't even think it's to increase the atmosphere on match day, although that is a strong possibility. It's to make Watford look and feel like a Premier league club. It makes the club a bigger attraction to those on the outside.

It's all very well being in the Premier league, but when your ground is small, it gives the impression you are only visiting and will not stay there very long. Expanding to 30,000 sends out a message to the football world. Watford are a Premier league club and intend to be there for a long time.

 

Where have I said don't expand ? I know that english (allegedly) isn't your first language !
My point is that WFC is a business without limitless funds and a project like this needs a business case, what will it cost vs what do we get back. Normally you want to see you will recover more than you spend. The extra revenue is difficult to quantify given we could be relegated next year. I've not said don't spend. What I've implied is that a cheaper route to get to 30k might be chosen ahead of a more aggressive plan. However I don't know the relative land values between city centre vs out-of-town close to M25. If city centre is more valuable then selling the site and building new from scratch might be financially viable.

 

I would love to see Watford have a big shiny stadium, but not if it's going to be one third empty all the time. There's always a dilemma for clubs building a new ground: do you build it just big enough for your regular support or big enough to accommodate the potential attendance for a 'big' game? In the days of terracing Vicarage Road was always listed with a capacity of 36,500, then later 28,000 when the police restricted it, but the only times we approached those figures were for big Cup ties. There are no big Cup ties any more sadly (except possibly in Europe), so the only times we could expect to attract 30,000 would be for the biggest Premier League games but some on this forum have already rejected the possibility of expanding the away section for such games. It therefore seems to me that a modest capacity increase to 25,000 is preferable, coupled with a longer term effort to gain a permanent, rather than transitory increase, in our fan base. If that could be achieved a further increase in capacity would then be sustainable and would not be so dependent on us always being in the Premier League.

 

I got the impression that you think it's a big risk to expand the stadium in case we get relegated. Is that not correct? With that word of caution I thought you would be more against expansion than for it.

I like the use of the word "allegedly". Just call me a liar, it's far more honest. You like the undeniable truth after all!!

But, this is what the club are planning on doing. Expanding the stadium via the most cost effective route possible. I suspect it will be a 3-4 year project, starting with the expansion of the SEJ stand, followed by another tier on the GT stand a couple of years later. After this maybe a levelling of the pitch will be undertaken, although I suspect that will only happen when the Desso pitch is due a complete overhaul.

A 4 year project is not an aggressive plan. It will be on budget and revenues from Premier League funds will be used for this purpose. What we get back is far more than just financial returns. It's a raising of the club's profile, which is very important in the long term future.

 

Yeah, we need to expand. I'm a bit surprised things seem to have stalled in the last couple of years to be honest. Duxbury has been talking 25-30k for a few years now. i'd half expected the plans for the next phase to be out by now. I know the accessibility/disability stuff has proven to be a distraction but I can't imagine it's a big project. That suggests to me the whole idea of expansion has gone back to the drawing board.

I'd like to think the idea of moving is just a stick being waved by the club to get the council into line. If they know what's at stake they might be more helpful. I can't imagine it's Thornhill's idea. I think she's just blabbed something the club have raised in meetings or when she's been at games.

 

It is without doubt a big risk to expand the stadium at great cost assuming a payback from premiership money and attendances in case we get relegated. But I am for expansion in a cost effective way which means there's no financial issue if we are relegated next season, or the one after. I'm sure this is what the Pozzos have in mind being astute businessmen rather than seeing this as a vanity project.
"Allegedly" was a wind up as I recall the debate before, and the surprise, given that your english is better than most on here ! I'm not calling you a liar What age did you move to Spain ? English or Spanish parents ? (I will of course then go back and check your answers are consistent with before ).

 

At some point we will go down and be back to 15 or 16,000 a game.

There's loads of small improvements that can be made to the current ground to add 2 or 3000 extra seats. Add to that the 1000 empty and wasted seats by the season ticket abuse in the family area and the 3 or 400 empty seats at the rookery end of the SEJ each week, for the time being we probably have enough space and capacity in the short term.

We all want a nice new shiny super dooper stadium or stand, but in reality it's a nicety rather than a necessary

 

A supermarket chain doesn't decide never to build any new shops ever on the basis one day the market might contract

Gino and Dux won't be thinking what if we get relegated

They will take a business decision based on cost v benefit of the options that meet the clubs needs and wants: maximum football success on the pitch and maximum commercial success off it