Real Madrid

Discussion in 'General Football & Other Sport' started by wfc4ever, Mar 5, 2019.

  1. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    I enjoyed watching football much more in Div 4 than I do these days. Now the result matters too much. Back then, it was just a bit of fun.
     
  2. Hornpete

    Hornpete Reservist

  3. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Just to put an end to this debate, here is UEFA's official verdict on the call - including images of the incident showing Kimpembe with his eyes clearly on the ball with his arm miles from his body - even before his feet are off the ground and his back is turned

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1Id2fbUYAAu6uU.jpg:large[​IMG]
     
  4. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Look at the photo in my post above - Kimpembe's got his arms out like he's doing a ballet pirouette.
     
  5. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Well guess they won't be using that ref again then?
     
  6. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    He won't have got out of Paris alive anyway.
     
  7. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    This is more conclusive that a wrong call was made. By the time the ball hits his elbow his arm is not straight. He's clearly tried to move it out of the way.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. I don't think that it puts an end to the debate at all - rather, it merely casts doubt on UEFA's competence.

    In the top picture, yes his hands are "miles" from his body and his feet are on the ground - but in the bottom picture he is in mid-air, having used his arms as 'levers' to help get there - quite a natural action for anyone attempting that manoeuvre - and his arms have moved back towards his body, again a natural action, but quite possibly made to avoid the ball hitting them.

    The problem for referees with Law 12 is the word 'deliberate' - in an instance like this, awarding a penalty for 'deliberate' handball is really only saying that the natural actions of jumping to block a rising shot are against the Laws of the game - which they aren't.
     
  9. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Just goes to show what a nightmare this will be. We can't agree after looking at all the stills. Put yourself in the shoes of the ref who has to make a call very quickly with all the background distraction and knowing that millions of fans are watching worldwide. Utterly impossible pressure.
     
    Happy bunny likes this.
  10. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    You don't need to have your arm stuck all the way out at a 90degree angle like that to jump:

    [​IMG]


    Sure, Kimpembe's arm having fallen closer to his body once he's in the air is more "natural" than his starting position, but if he really was trying to get his arms out of the way then he was very slow and incompetent at doing so, given only his hand goes down but his elbow is still sticking out at to basically the same large extent. Also, his back was turned by that point so he'd basically just left his elbow sticking out, in a position where he could have expected that the ball could have hit it given that he'd been watching where it was, but no longer paying attention enough to make a genuine attempt to get it out the way.

    Furthermore, even if he had even made a feeble attempt to get out of the way later, that is a complete irrelevance considering that he'd already made the mistake by making his arms so big in the first place. Following your logic would be as if referees were to stop giving free-kicks for late sliding tackles, if the player tries and pulls out of the challenge at the last minute having realised that they're not going to get the ball, but they still take the player out anyway. Sure, maybe the ref might not give a yellow if the player tries to back out of the challenge, but the player had already made the mistake which caused the foul.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  11. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    TBF if your arm is sticking out and in a split second if you try to pull your arm in quickly, it's your elbow that moves last.
     
  12. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Maybe, but as I say in my last paragraph, even if his hand dropping was partly him trying to get out of the way (which is also kind of a silly argument given he'd stopped even looking at the ball by that point), it doesn't matter as he'd already made the mistake by jumping with it so far out while having his eyes on the ball in the first place.

    If you go in for a sliding tackle, realise you've mis-timed it and will arrive late, so try and pull your foot out but still take the man out with your knee as you're following through, it's still a foul.
     
  13. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    But this photo is of players with time to remember everything. It's much easier at a free kick to remember to keep your arms down than in a split second shot. I'm not sure if it was a penalty or not anymore which makes you realise how difficult it is to make the decision. Love the defending of the number 77 just in case the ball goes below the wall.
     
  14. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    It being "easy to remember" shouldn't really have much to do with it - I don't see how 'don't jump with your arm stuck out at 90 degrees while trying to black a shot' is a less reasonable or feasible expectation to make of a defender than the one saying, for example 'don't slide in for a tackle with your studs up'. Players already make loads of split-second decisions like that in matches all the time.



    (PS the number 77 is actually the only one there who has risked giving away a handball by having his hand stuck out behind his head there)
     
  15. reids

    reids Squad Player

    I can fully see why the penalty was given. I can also see why people are saying it's not a penalty. This is surely a major flaw in the rules - there's so much open to interpretation. Rather than ******* around with new rules like no rebounds from penalties etc it's time for a major re-write of the rules. Which will also help with consistency with VAR.
     
  16. But they are standing still - meaning a totally different jumping action.
    The angle of your original picture is misleading too - look where his arm is here - and remember that this is still before the ball hit him.
    [​IMG]
    Equally dubious from UEFA is their contention that "Following the on-field review, the referee confirmed that the distance that the ball travelled was not short and the impact could therefore not be unexpected."
    The shot was taken from not far outside the penalty area - Kimpembe was just inside the penalty area. How far is 'not short' - and how quickly can a defender move in comparison to a ball kicked at the average speed of somewhere between 100 - 130 kmh?
     
  17. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    Go and find images of people jumping while running and virtually all of them will not have their arms by their sides. It's a natural movement
     
  18. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Yawn. The image you showed has his arm still far from his body - plus with the added bonus there of his other hand even sticking out beyond his head!

    As for "how far is 'not short' "- clearly at least the distance Kimpembe was from Dalot, which was at least 2.5/3 metres:

    [​IMG]

    Finally, the speed of movement of a player vs. the ball argument is a complete red herring given that players are required to make split-second decisions during games all the time, such as making a sliding tackle or not, or coming off your line if you're a goalkeeper to clear a ball, jumping to head a whipped-in cross, etc. etc.

    Plus, Kimpembe had plenty long enough to jump and turn his back on the ball before the shot reached him - if he can do that then it should also have also been enough time to make a better effort of getting his arm away - it should be much quicker to lower your arm then jump 180 degrees... (but he didn't help himself by stupidly having his arm far out to begin with).
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  19. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    It's not "natural" as you can also control your arms not to do so. If you're making a jumping block while running, sure it's a common movement, but not absolutely essential, it just perhaps means you might travel as far. Similarly, when going for a sliding lunge it's common enough to have your studs showing - it's not "natural" though either as the movement can also be controlled if decided upon.

    And even if you did argue that making a jumping block with your arms out is "natural", in the same way that sliding with your studs up, neither of them mean that you don't also risk giving away a foul when making such a movement in the first place (both actions could still be decided against, being made in the first place and/or better controlled when making them).

    When you jump with your arms up while trying to block a ball, you risk the ball hitting your hand and giving away a foul, similar to a player making a sliding tackle and risking giving away a foul.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  20. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    The no rebounds thing turned out to be fake news.
     
    reids likes this.
  21. His arm is actually in the natural position for an arm - next to his body. As for the position of his other arm, that, to use your vernacular, is a complete red herring - it had nothing whatsoever to do with the penalty decision.

    Thanks for making my point for me - for the ball to travel 3 metres at the average speed of a shot would take approximately a second. - that makes a mockery of UEFA's contention, regardless of what you seem to think a player can do in a second.

    Yawn. Think again - the dual actions of jumping and turning were done at the same time. Triple actions really, as he also brought his arm down at the same time.
     
  22. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    This is all reasonsable but the fact is you continually ignore the actual rule. To correct your statement:

    “If you jump with your arms up you risk the ball hitting your hand and given away a foul.........because having your arms away from your body makes it less likely the referee considers the handball accidental”

    It really is that simple. You can argue this particular one both ways. However you can never be “proved” correct because it is subjective.
     
  23. It is natural to raise your arms when jumping to head the ball it helps to gain height, so it should not be automatically penalised if your arms are raised IMO, the ref should be able to differentiate between the natural action when jumping, which would make the handball accidental and when someone deliberately uses their arm to block the ball.

    Most people who have played football should be able to recognise this also.
     
    Jumbolina likes this.
  24. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    You are aware that players make split-second decisions on connecting with fast moving balls all the time, aren't you? I mean, goalkeepers for example regularly save shots made from even closer distances than this one by moving their arms towards a shot - moving your arm away from a shot is basically the same, except just in reverse!

    You're talking about it as if he was trying to trying to dodge an atom in the hadron collider.
     
    RookeryDad and UEA_Hornet like this.
  25. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Fine, that seems like a reasonable statement.
     
  26. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    I've decided not to take up refereeing
     
    The undeniable truth likes this.
  27. Stevohorn

    Stevohorn Watching Grass Grow

    Luther didnt need any of this namby-pamby sticking your elbows out stuff..


    1_Watford-v-Sunderland-1982.jpg
     
  28. You are aware that goalkeepers are allowed to do that aren't you? And defenders aren't...
     
  29. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I think a decent shot would go over 30 metres in a second. I reckon it would only take 0.1 sec to travel 3 metres.
     
  30. Hornpete

    Hornpete Reservist

    Good math.

    In cricket its thought a batsman has 0.5 seconds to a fast bowler. 0.1 seconds is nowhere near possible to react and move.
     
  31. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Are you allowed to wander around inside the collider?
     
  32. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    What a circus Real Madrid is. Any young player going there needs to have their brain examined. Perez is a nasty piece of work and so are many of their players. It's a real shame gentlemen like di Stefano, Gento , Redondo and Puskas had to play for them. Mind you like most clubs their size most of their fans have no idea who these players are. Glory hunters most of them. It's great seeing them in the turmoil they are. No doubt Perez will go on a spending spree again this summer to compensate for his own inadequacies. I have always sided with Atletico.
     
    RookeryDad likes this.
  33. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    As far as I'm aware both goalkeepers and defenders are allowed to do the opposite of moving their arm towards a ball to save a shot.

    However, while that's recommended for a defender, goalkeepers should stick to using their reflexes to get their arm in the way of the ball rather than out the way of it...
     
  34. That's not Luther - that's the famous Israeli forward Levi Tation...
     
  35. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Only with a Haivis Veste and red helmet due to all the dangerous atoms and other little bits of stuff they put in there.
     

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