Real Madrid

Discussion in 'General Football & Other Sport' started by wfc4ever, Mar 5, 2019.

  1. Hornpete

    Hornpete Reservist

    In my view, having yours arms un-naturally placed means fixed to your body.like a dance craze from the 90's.
     
  2. Hornpete

    Hornpete Reservist

    See above, they only do it because it means the ref is less inclined to beleive they meant to handle it. Its not the law (yet) that hand hitting ball is a penalty. I respectfully still think the entire law and interpretation is a farce, but confess I find it confusing these days.
     
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  3. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    You are just making up your own rules.

    The current rule is purely about intentional handball. It does not refer to “arms at side”. The interpretation is subjective so of course whether an arm is out from body or if a player turns his back needs to be factored into the equation which is why players defend with their arms down.

    Next season intention is removed and it comes down to the silhouette concept.

    For me the PSG bloke has his arm out but it was unintentional. Your example of standing in a wall the wrong way round with your arms out obviously shows intent to potentially block with your hand.
     
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  4. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Spot on.
     
  5. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    What is or isn't "natural" though?! I certainly don't walk around with my elbows sticking 30cm away from my torso as per Kimpembe below. It could be natural for gorillas and cockney wideboys though - is that reallly an acceptable excuse? Thiago Silva next to him manages perfectly well to jump and try and block the shot with his arms close to his body.

    [​IMG]

    It's not "purely about intentional" - the ref already has to consider the position of the player's arm as a separate factor.

    And how does my example obviously show intent?! Players could just say that it's natural to hold your arms out like a gorilla as a plea of faux ignorance.
     
  6. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    It is about intent. Arm position is a factor in determining intent.

    If I create a defensive wall with arms in the air clearly that shows intend to use arms as part of the defensive wall thus penalty.
     
  7. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Next season that would have to be given as a penalty as the word "deliberate" is going to be removed. But this season, never in a million years was that a deliberate handball.

    His arm was in a natural position. In no way could it be construed he move his arm towards the ball.

    Even with VAR this is a clear indicator that officials are completely out of step with their interpretation of the laws with everyone else that watches or plays the game, even at a professional level.

    This will become an example case, I have no doubt. You just cannot be giving penalties for this type of event, but I fear next season any slight touch of ball to arm, no matter how unintentional, a penalty will be given. Players will quickly switch on to lifting the ball deliberately onto an opponents arm in the penalty area, in order to force a penalty.

    I suspect the end result, will be several penalties per match, the rule reviewed and changed again because of the farcical nature it will turn into.
     
  8. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Okay, so why isn't it the same then when I jump to block a shot with my arms sticking way out from my torso?!......

    Your arms don't need to be there.
     
  9. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Jump up and twist around when someone fires a football at you. Get someone to take a photo of you doing this. I suspect your arm will be in a very similar position. If you spin around, you arms will move away from your body. It's the same as when you jump, your elbows come out as you get elevation. His arm is bent at the elbow with the lower arm/hand moving towards his body. Had his arm been straight at the elbow and lower arm/hand moving away from his body, then yes, I'd agree and would interpret that has trying to get something in the way of the ball deliberately, but that wasn't the case here.

    Had Kimpembe placed both his arms in front of his body when he jumped, now that would have looked very odd and unnatural.

    What I find most alarming is the refereeing fraternity are backing this as a correct call, where virtually everyone else I heard or seen interviewed on TV who isn't a referee/ex-referee has back in no way is that a penalty.

    There, without doubt, is a big difference in interpretation of the laws in this instance. I just think the officials are getting this type of decision completely wrong.

    It wasn't given without VAR, as in real time it looked exactly like it was, an accidental deflection off an elbow.

    If you look at it on VAR, it's clearly hit the elbow, but other factors come into play. At that speed, how could a player know where to place his arm when he was not even looking? His lower arm bends towards his body, so he's clearly not trying to extend an arm towards the ball. Common sense had to prevail in this particular case. There was not enough evidence to suggest the handball was deliberate, and I think it actually proved the opposite was true.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
  10. Hornpete

    Hornpete Reservist

    Its a very good point that defenders could run with arms or elbows out and say it was accidental if thats the rules. But I'll say that NOBODY runs or jumps with their arms sewn into their torsos apart from footballers defending. I guess the rule change to silhouette, whatever that is defined as, is a way to clarify the decision.
     
  11. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Intent is subjective. You think it was a penalty. I don’t. Probably the reason they are moving away from intent to silhouette next year I guess. Although there will be new debates on what is a natural silhouette!
     
  12. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Ermmm... except if you watch the replay you clearly see that his arm did move towards the ball - his arm was down by his side (and further away from the ball, obviously) when the ball was struck, but was up (and close enough to the ball to hit it) when it went by him.

    And how is having your elbow pointing 30cm outside your torso "natural"?! Thiago Silva next to Kimpembe shows that it's clearly very possible to have your arms by your side while moving.
     
  13. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I agree. Not a penalty for me.
     
  14. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Are you now turning against VAR having been the biggest fan of it on here ?

    Or rather the way it's used /interpreted by the officials...

    (Because it was going to stop big teams getting all the decisions)
     
  15. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Hm, that part is also a fair point. Thiago Silva in that photo though does clearly show that it is possible to maintain control/discipline of one's arms when trying to get in the way of the ball. Either way I do agree that further clarification is clearly necessary, which they are doing with the "torso sillhouette" wording (but I do think that it's the most sensible place to draw the line of illegality or else defenders could get away with way too much interference).
     
  16. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    To me it looks like he's tucking his head in and when you think the ball is going towards your head, you turn your back and lift your arms towards your head. Was it brave defending? Nope, and I'm sure if Dyche was his manager he'd have told him to stand his ground and face the ball.

    Look at the other players in the photo. The United player has his arm away from his body, the player on the ground has an arm sticking out away from his body. The player landing on one leg has his arm bent at the elbow and away from his body. It's impossible to move in a fast action sport without some sort of arm movement.

    Kimpembe's right leg is also a long way from his body, which is also another reason why the arms would naturally move in unison as a counter-balance. Don't forget that photo is a snapshot during a fast action sequence.

    More credence should have been given to the fact he was not looking at the ball. Any benefit of the doubt, and there was plenty on this case, should be given to the defending player as he was unaware where the ball was in relation to his arm.

    Mariappa did something even more blatant than that against Leicester. He swung his arm around and touched the ball with his hand. Clearly accidental and even Jon Moss, who wants to give every decision against us, could not bring himself to call that as a deliberate handball and penalty.
     
  17. Filbert

    Filbert Leicester supporting bloke

    It’s a good job VAR has come in and cleared all this stuff up.
     
  18. Diamond

    Diamond Squad Player

    It's a very simple solution. Don't play videos back in slow motion. If you show that clip in slo-mo it looks a deliberate hand ball. At normal speed, even having watched it 10 times it's never a deliberate handball. VAR is sh*t.
     
  19. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    Good point. Would that work for offsides though?

    It didn’t look like a penalty to me.
     
  20. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    To be fair, the PSG fans were happy debating the decision in the pub after the game. Because that's what it's all about.
     
    Filbert likes this.
  21. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Dermott Gallagher just said on Ref Watch that it wasn't a penalty and he's not spoken to anyone who thought it was.

    The problem with VAR is that it puts a lot of pressure on a referee to overturn his decision, because he's called over to review a situation. By implication it suggests he has got his original decision wrong and it's that pressure which makes referees compliant to the view of the person in the video room. It's the same as when a linesman flags. The referee will almost always go with his linesman, even though it quite a few cases he has a much better view than his assistant.

    To me, VAR is being used too often and it being used incorrectly. It has to be clear and obvious, like the goal Southampton scored against us this season. It has to be used only in cases of fact not interpretation. I think in time it will go that way, but for now, it's going to be a bit chaotic for a season or two.

    Laws have to be changed to allow facts to be clear. For example, the word "deliberate" will be taken away from handball in the penalty area. This makes a decision so much easier. All a referee has to then do is watch the video to see whether it touched an arm or not. It's clear and factual, and there is no interpretation involved.
     
  22. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Can the referee refer issues to the VAR guys or do they just interrupt him if they feel he might want to reconsider a decision ? If the former, there will be many many situations where the players surround the ref to create an air of uncertainty so that the ref will be refering to VAR panel every 5 minutes. Eventually the ref on the pitch won't make decisions, he will just enact what "the studio" tells him.
     
    wfc4ever likes this.
  23. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I believe the way it works right now, is that the video referee monitors the match and will tell the referee there is an incident that he needs to review. I don't see why it shouldn't work the other way around, for a referee to actually request a review.

    At the end of the day, VAR is an assistant, just like his linesmen. A referee can consult with his lineman whenever he sees fit, so I think that will probably apply to VAR also. VAR is there to help the referee make the correct decision, so I'd be surprised if he wasn't allowed to refer to it when he was unsure of something.

    In your example of players bothering him every 5 minutes, all the referee would have to say to defuse a situation is "In my mind I saw it clearly and I have had no contradiction from the video referee, so I will not review on your request"...….or in Mike Dean's case he'd just say "Go away, go away, go away"
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
  24. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    The big issue with VAR and player behaviour is that you'll have them demanding it to be used for any little petty incident.

    No doubt the ref from last nigh had both PSG and Man U players in his ear whilst looking at the incident whilst as HB1 says having pressure from the VAR guys who I presume thought it was a penalty hence asking him to look..

    Maybe they could introduce a 2 per team appeal type thing as in cricket and if they waste it (as England cricketers always seem to do!) then tough luck.
     
  25. Filbert

    Filbert Leicester supporting bloke

    Games about opinions innit? I work with a few PSG fans and we’re having some lovely banter today.
     
  26. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    If you jump it is inevitable that you're arms will move unless (see pic) you concentrate on not doing so. Not one person jumping for the ball below has their hands by their side. I would say jumping like the Masai Mara do is more unnatural than jumping with your arms out. At a free kick it's very easy to make sure you don't move your arms but in the split second that handball happened last night there is no way the defender will have time to think about that. That is not deliberate but maybe the rule should be an indirect free kick and not a penalty.
    [​IMG]
     
    The undeniable truth likes this.
  27. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Reservist

    In the normal run of things a referee will make a decision instinctively, in an instant, based on what he sees once live but one of the many problems with VAR was shown last night when the ref was advised to watch the handball incident again on the pitch-side screen. Because it was right at the end of the game and because of the aggregate score the ref knew in all likelihood that if he gave a penalty Man U would go through and if he didn't PSG would. So, at best, you can say too much pressure is put on him to effectively decide the result and, at worst, you are giving him the opportunity to play God.
     
  28. What if you create a defensive wall with hands cupping genitals (your own, not the guy standing next to you ;)) They have all put their hands there deliberately, if one set of hands gets hit, is that a penalty?
     
  29. And BT Sports' former ref Peter Walton said that it definitely was according to the relevant law. Although I seem to remember he and Chris Powell had a slight disagreement over whether or not a nose was part of an arm.
     
  30. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Yes, there has been a split across the board on this. It's like half saying a football is round and the other saying, no it's square. I know it's round, but if 50% of people say it's square, what can you do?
     
  31. Not a lot - which highlights a point made after the match last night to the effect that people who have actually played the game would be better referees. Referees and lawmakers simply don't seem to realise the part played by arms in the act of jumping.

    Ifab technical director David Elleray claimed that the 'natural silhouette' rule being introduced is an effort to put an end to defenders placing their arms behind their backs in fear of giving away a free-kick - but didn't elaborate on what that natural silhouette actually was. For me - the PSG defender's arm was definitely in a natural position for someone trying to jump the height that he actually managed.
     
  32. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    The thing is, you don't even need to have played the game professionally to have an idea about what a natural silhouette is. You just need to have been a member of the human race to know.
     
  33. So we agree - referees aren't human.

    Especially the ones we seem to attract...
     
  34. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    We all have different silhouttes though - compare the 2019 and 2017 TD models !
     
  35. another_mrlizard

    another_mrlizard Squad Player

    Happily, I've just had it confirmed that there will be none of this Nintendo ******** in the Southern League, Division 1 South next season.

    I might actually get back to enjoying watching football again.
     

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