That’s no excuse for not significantly upgrading the defence over CONSECUTIVE windows. A club that likes to talk and show off about its scouting and model and admitted a year ago that they knew that significant improvements were needed - have added Adam Masina, Ben Wilmot and Craig Dawson in 2 years, and dish out new deals to ageing players who are past their best. Fans have every right to question that. Almost to a person, every fan who jumped to the owners/boards defence earlier in the season, said they were sure Gino could see it and would act accordingly in January. So where is it? 48hrs left and at this point, it’s desperately disappointing again.
Yeah, those people won't remember saying that, conveniently. Anyway, don't you remember when that time we nearly went into administration despite the fact that Ashcroft would never have let us go into administration?
I totally agree that we haven't done enough to strengthen the defence especially in the summer when you have 3 months to get things sorted. Considering Britos left in the summer, to only bring in Dawson was strange as it left us still with Prodl and Mariappa, one who is never fit and one who isn't good enough. That being said, trying to rectify this in January is far more difficult and my point was, I'm sure we were looking way in advance of the window opening but at this time of year there are very few options available as most teams are in Europe still, chasing a European qualification, attempting to get promoted, trying not to get relegated so any player people let go will probably need to be replaced. The other option is you bid a ridiculous sum of money which the selling club can't turn down or you pick a player that simply isn't playing like Gibson. Even Gibson Burnley have said they want a replacement first which is why the last two days are generally very busy. We're not a club that can just throw money around so we may have to wait for the right player and not end up with players like Wague. We've signed Pussetto who will hopefully prove to be an able back up winger and I would love to see a right back as we don't have a fit one currently. Clyne at Liverpool or the kid at Chelsea (Tariq?). An upgrade on the centre backs would be lovely as well but is Gibson that player? He's barely played for 18 months so isn't match fit and we really need a player who can hit the ground running It's not easy and I fully blame the club for not sorting this in the summer and it may cost us dearly but January is far more difficult time to resolve the problem
I’m not sure upgrades are even required, we just need extra bodies of the same standard. Giraldi and Pozzo have been so negligent/incompetent that we now have three defenders who are obsolete (Prodl, Holebas and Janmaat) and a backup who plays the majority of games (Maps).
Holebas is maybe a little unfair as he had a good season last year but age seems to have caught him up very quickly. Prodl is definitely a waste of space. God knows what's happened to Janmaat but there doesn't seem to be a timescale for his return and no news on Femenia either. Maybe Gibson is being looked at as an extra body
January is a hard month to operate in. But we’ve had months to prepare and use the ‘model’ and ‘best scouting system in football’. So either that’s nonsense and we claim we have abilities in the market that are in truth no different from anyone else. Or we do have those abilities and have been woefully underprepared and arrogant. I don’t see how it works both ways.
It's ok, we're still trying to sign a guy that can't get in the Burnley team and pay his wages of £50k a week. Giraldi’s got this.
Ben Arfa on a loan would’ve been so much fun. He’s at Valladolid now anyway. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Masina has emerged as a decent player, as has Dawson. Wilmot seems to be getting good reviews at Swansea. I don't always agree with their decisions, but you must admit that Masina, Dawson, Wilmot and Foster for around £12m isn't bad. In the same time, Everton must have spent £100m+ on Mina, Digne, Keane and Pickford.
I don’t find the comparison with Everton to be a true one mainly because they have been vastly overpaying for players for a good number of years now. I’m not advocating us overpaying for anyone. I’m questioning the faith in the ‘model’ specifically around defenders. I don’t have to admit what you say because I’m not going to jump to claim Masina, Dawson and Wilmot have been value for money yet. Masina is only just starting to perform 18 months after signing. Dawson is in and out of the team and has shown more dodgy performances than good ones as yet. Wilmot he played about 180 odd minutes and some of that was under some weird attempt to convert him to a midfielder. He’s barely kicked a ball as a defender yet for us.
Only time will tell I guess. I don't deny we need backup in defence, but I also look at us conceding 6 in 9 games, and believe there's decent enough players there already given the right management. Every side in the division is guilty of wasting money.
Can't really answer this but no matter what the scouting or model is like, the player has to want to come here and the club will have to want to sell but as I said, the club will probably want a replacement first. From what I hear about Giraldi your last statement may be correct!
I agree. But under that thinking, if we never sign another player again, we can’t criticise it because the player has to want to come and the club have to want to sell? Do you see my point? At some point you have to move those arguments and question consecutive windows with little meaningful facelift of the defence. If it was just this window, I’d be happier to accept those reasons you give. But it’s not. Realistically it’s the last 5 or 6 windows. We’ve stayed in the PL in spite of our defence, not because of it. I remember sitting on a coach in the dark in Reykjavik when the window where we signed Deulofeu on loan and Lukebakio closed - and I posted then that I thought that was the last window where we could really ignore the defence at our peril. From then on it’s needed steady recruitment to make it far better. And it hasn’t had it.
Up and down the country Range Rovers are being eagerly polished in anticipation of a 10 second Sky interview through the window clip on transfer deadline day. This is the bumper day for the car cleaning products industry.
Any defensive “squad” that contains Prodl and Holebas, as well as injury prone Janmaat and has Mariappa as a regular starter needs serious improvement. We have one viable right back (who covers left back as well) and one left back who isn’t 35 years old.
Over the last couple of seasons, maybe. Maybe I’ve overstated how poor I believe it to be but I think it’s always been our weakness. This season? Absolutely not. For the vast amount of this season, we have been very poor defensively. Pearson has overseen an upturn but with the defenders he has available, I don’t think we will keep that up. We are 19th. It’s clear surely? It’s the Premier League - if you’re standing still, you’re going backwards. A number of people on here have seen our defensive shortcomings increasing over time and said something needs to be done - this seems to be another window where it hasn’t been. Only in my opinion of course.
It's not about the quality of players either really, there's no point having a right-back pairing as competent as Janmaat & Femenia to then have Mariappa play over 10 games there in a season. I love Mapps, a quality servant and a club legend but that should not be happening.
If you look at goals scored and goals conceded you will easily come to the conclusion why we are 19th. We are the lowest scorers in the division.
But we have numbers in attack. We don’t have numbers in defence. See my posts elsewhere. I accept getting genuine quality improvements is better done in the summer (it wasn’t) but I don’t think it’s exceptionally hard for a club that promotes how we scout and have a unique model, to find reinforcements that are better than Mariappa and Holebas. And fitter than Janmaat. And both in the case of Prodl. While I accept the parameters that clubs have in January, I just very little excuse for us not getting the bodies in to make us more solid at the back, even on a short term basis.
Not having a go at you, just making a point I have previously when lots of people have moaned about the defence. Compared to the rest of the division our defence has been poor but our goal scoring has been terrible, and the reason we are near the bottom. The club have invested in players to fix this, but for various reasons it has not worked. Focusing on attacking players has left the defence underfunded. If those attaching players were producing goals we would be in a good position and the focus would be off the defence. If we were winning 3-2 everyone is happy, if we lose 1-2 then we moan about the defence. But in both cases they conceded 2 goals. The model obviously fits more attaching players as their value goes up more if you produce a good one, defenders rarely produce big returns on investment. The defence needs work to make it (keep it) good enough, the goal scoring needs improving. Sarr looks a good addition, lets hope some of the others come good.
If it wasn't for the horrendous City result, then we'd be 4/5th best in the league defensively Joint 2nd most clean sheets. Really considering we were allergic to shooting until Pearson arrived, the defence has done a pretty decent job this season
Go over more or less every match thread from August to December and see if there are comments about the defence going a good job? It’s revisionism. As I said before, we as fans fell into two groups more or less - those who criticised the owner and board for their arrogance towards defensive recruitment and those who said that we should trust them to put it right in January. ‘Remove this result and we would look far better statistically’...all well and good. But you can’t remove the result.
Goes to show how crap our attack has been. My point still stands though. If you look at goals conceded, we're still in and around Arsenal, Cheslea and Spurs despite getting tonked by City.
Since the Palace game we've conceded 6 in 9. That's 2nd only to Liverpool Maybe that's pure fluke. Maybe the defenders are better than you think, who knows. All I know is that despite our form since that result, we've still scored the fewest goals in the division. That for me is where the problem has been all season, not the defence
Do you not think attacking prowess directly feeds from defensive strength? We have players with good attacking ability. They are capable of even better. We can’t say the same about the defenders in truth. Liverpool were decent before with all their strikers - but they always fell short. They strengthened themselves defensively and they’ve swept all in front of them. City won the treble with the same attackers they have now but have fallen away because their defence has gone backwards. If we went and spent £40m on attackers, can we be sure that would rectify things? In my opinion no, not with the defence we have. But if we spent that on defenders, I’d bet a lot that we would be better at both ends of the pitch.
I certainly cannot argue against your point about the defence being ignored. I'm not sure we can or will do much now in January so if we do stay up it will be intersting to see their approach. I believe Holebas, Mariappa and Janmaat are out of contract so you would think that we will have to react and hopefully not by giving them extended deals. Let's just hope we are still a Premier League club by then
True. Some of that is down to the ludicrous Flores with 10 men behind the ball. Equally I’d imagine if we had gone Gracia then Pearson the goals scored would have been a bit healthier.
Indeed. How many attacks die because Mariappa or Dawson when playing right back can’t pass from A to B without shanking it out for a throw in or giving away possession.
In fairness both the defence and the attack have improved since Pearson came in. We are still the lowest scorers because we had scored so few in the first half of the season. The main issue is that we have a very decent first eleven, maybe even 13 or 14 players but once we get injuries in any area we are short of quality. For all the abuse he gets, since Deeney came back we have looked a far better team but when he's not playing we don't have anybody to cover. We signed Pussetto as cover for the wingers and I think he should play over Pereyra but before he came we had no decent cover for Sarr and Delefeou. Cathcart and Kabasele in my opinion are the best centre backs but we don't have much quality after that. The full backs is difficult because we started the season with Holebas who was excellent last season but has gone backwards rapidly which leaves just Masina. At right back you would be reasonably happy with Janmaat and Femenia but both have struggled with injuries and the latter with form earlier in the season. Injuries have not helped but every team gets them but if we stay up this year I think we will need quite a few reinforcements all over the team
I think goals scored vs conceded stats have been skewed by having QSF play for 0-0 in half our games so far this season. Think of it like this: If we go down, teams will be fighting each other to sign Deulofeu, Pereyra and Sarr. Nobody is going to be after Mariappa, Cathcart or Dawson.
At the end of the day, this window is really just a culmination of the poor transfer business we’ve conducted over the past 3-4 years. We’ve failed to invest properly in the defense previously, and the speed at which our defensive capability declined this year caught us out. I think Giraldi/Gino gambled on making do with what we had for another season, and clearly that gamble has backfired horrendously. Now were in a position where the heavy investment that’s needed, becomes a lot riskier, not to mention, much harder to attract the caliber of player needed. We’ve made our bed, and now we’re stuck laying in it. IF we’re able to sneak to safety this year, you’d have to assume we’d be active in the transfer market this summer, with a focus on defensive upgrades. Failure to do so will just compound the negligence/arrogance/incompetence that has already occurred.
