Gaza/Israel

Israel exists because it's borders were naturally defensible from the oncoming Arab genocide in 1948. Israel accepted the UN partition plan, they were happy with any homeland, it was the Arabs who were greedy and thought it was theirs by right after the fall of the ottoman empire. Palestinians have no claim to the land pre-1918. Sovereignty belonged to turkey. Israel declared what it had from the partition plan as Israel who were then attacked and they defended themselves and pushed back the borders to natural defensible places like the Golan Heights, the Sinai and the River of Jordan I think it's called.

You're first point you are conflating Jews with Zionists. The conflict is in no way religious it's about land and has been twisted into a religious debate since. Just as a side point I found the last Pogrom was in 1991 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights_Riot

The point that Jews wouldn't be in more danger than any other race isn't valid. That's not the point I would argue for anyway. The reason Israel exists is because the UN gave it to them, and the jews accepted the partition plan and were then attacked.

That hypothetical example isn't valid at all.

Out of curiosity what would you consider as an acceptable reason for a nation state to exist?

 

The sad thing is most of the people want to live in peace and let bygone history be just that , its just relgious zealots and politicians that are keeping the conflict going and I`m not referring to the middle East but the White house the amount of money that is spent on procuring American weaponry and then more spent on improving it is staggering , The arms industry between the US and Israel is a multi billion dollar business going both ways , the US using the middle east as a testing site!! Until the politicians stop meddling in other countries affairs this dispute will always simmer.
It is a shame , I was in Israel when peace looked likely when Jew was working with Arab in the Kibbutz and Moshavim ,in the construction sites in Tel aviv. There was so much hope for the future . Yet Now that chance has long since extinguished and the status quo has been returned and the killing will always continue.

 

I don't think "the UN gave it to them" and "Britain decided" carry much weight. In 1948 we still thought we were still desperately holding on to our empire, and though we had the right to claim territory and devide it up without asking the natives peasants for their input.

 

I apologise if I caused any offence, I meant none. My opinion of Israel, as I say, is almost exclusively pre-partition as I think that is the only part that matters. The last 60 years have been constant, endless, senseless killing. I certainly wouldn't exclusively criticise Israel for the last sixty years of war! Its at the point now where they fight to avenge yesterday's killings, there is nothing to be gained from that.

I wouldn't dare pretend to know how much Jews love Israel or anything of the sort, but what I would question is whether religious zeal is sufficient justification to set into motion a conflict that has lasted close to a hundred years? My Berkshire point was more to question whether if it was a different religion and it was encroaching our land we would all be so understanding? Obviously in 1948 it was a very different situation, there is no great threat to the Jewish people any more than any other race/religion. Post-holocaust it was an impossible situation, I suppose the question is how long can you use the holocaust as justification for the need for a Jewish state? Will it still be a relevant justification in two hundred years for example? I really don't want to offend, or sound cold or insensitive, I'm clearly not criticising holocaust survivors or their kin or other Jews at the time for not wanting to assimilate back into societies which had treated them as they did. I hope you get the gist of what I'm saying without thinking I'm being disrespectful.

Hurray, debate.

The only reason the UN held the mandate at all is because in three decades the British weren't able to find any resolution at all due to neither side being willing to make any concessions whatsoever and in the end gave up and handed it back to the UN. The Zionists thought the Brits were bluffing as they assumed our colonial will was far stronger than it was, had they known we were actually going to had it to the UN for forced partition I think they may actually have made some sort of concession. You speak as though the Zionists in Palestine and abroad were an amiable, compromising peoples. It is simply not true. The Jews wouldn't accept any compromise any more than the Arabs. Zionists began to migrate to Palestine in the 19th Century with the intention of settling permanently and very quickly the intention of removing the incumbent Arabs. There was never to be a compromise from either side, what you are saying is extremely biased. There was offer made to Herzl to create the Jewish homeland in Uganda, which he accepted, but when he presented it to the WZO it was soundly rejected. Herzl had thought that the Zionists wanted a Jewish homeland when what they actually wanted was Palestine. A sizeable number thought this was a mistake and a fair amount of effort was put into finding alternative homelands. Unfortunately negotiation was not a trait in Zionist hierarchy, it was the whole of Palestine under Jewish rule, no alternative, no concession. The lack of compromise was very mutual, and considering that the Zionists were the invaders and the minority I think it was very much up to them to concede to the incumbent rule, not the other way around. A vocal, violent minority demanding control over the majority on the basis of their religion is not akin to widespread support in the incumbent country...

Israel was, err, allowed to come into existence by the UN essentially for the sole reason that some Jewish people, understandably, felt they were not safe elsewhere in light of the holocaust. Quite obviously that is no longer the case. I responded to the 'Nation-state existence' question in my Yellowkicks response in the post above, 4th paragraph. We are clearly talking in abstract theoretical nonsense here anyway, its not like you can just 'disband' Israel, I'm not suggesting it is a solution. This is just my take on the situation and where the fault lies way back when.

What part of my hypothetical example isn't valid?

 

This thread makes for very interesting reading. It's depressing because it's only strengthening my understanding that there really is no solution, but I feel like I'm learning things, and understanding why people on either side are so charged by the confilct.

For the record, I find PotGuy's contribution the most interesting, and most agreeable. The fact that he's not putting forward a solution is irrelevant, as this conflict is far too complex now, and there really is no way out without huge compromise on one or both sides.

 

your post lost all credibility when you said 'because god said'

 

I think that was the point he was making. That God don't say much on account of his not existing.

 

What?

 

Palestine also has a right to defend itself. If you punched me in the face and I beat you and your children unconcious with a baseball bat would that be OK because you hit me?
And just as easy as it is to accuse institutions and people of being anti-semetic, you could say others are being anti-Islam.

 

Im wfc - who is reacting to who? Israel does not occupy Gaza and reacts to the daily rocket bombardment and, pre wall, the daily suicide bombers. This is orchestrated by a recognised terrorist organisation

On another note it has been interesting to read peoples views and I'm delighted that there are more educated responses than the biased media portrays. I don't agree with some of you, sorry pot guy but can't see the Berkshire comparison, but you have reasoned arguments for someone of your age ( please don't take that the wrong way)

I think one thing that is difficult for anybody to understand is how emotive, and therefore how difficult it is to be rational, when you are so closely linked to the cause....either by religion, death through holocaust, Palestinian roots etc

 

Who is reacting to who?

They are both reacting to each other. This is a constant conflict that has been going on. Who started it doesn't even come into consideration.

And while Isreal may have shown great restraint, they aren't right now. If they're trying their best not to harm civilians then they are't trying very hard. They bombed a civilian press building, yes they may have been extremist press, but it's still civilian people. http://www.adalah.org/eng/?mod=articles&ID=1867

Of course Isreal is defending itself, but is the scale of this defense productive? It only provokes more rocket attacks from Hamas and definitely doesn't save any Palestinian lives. The Palestinians could stop the violence and there would be peace yes, but they still would live in poverty in a tiny part of the land they once occupied.

 

It is a well known fact that Hamas use highly populated areas to launch or store their armoury. Israel therefore either do nothing to stop the attacks on their civilians or attempts to be as pinpoint as possible in order to reduce civilian deaths. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't

In a recent attack Israel identified a storage depot in the basement of a hospital. In another they gave an advance warning and dropped leaflets to leave the house where there was another identified armoury. Hamas organised people to gather around the house

Just google the examples that the IDF have filmed.

Israel wants peace, the West Bank residents want peace, Egypt wants peace, I presume the majority of Palestinian residents in Gaza want peace. Hamas doesn't

 

I'm sure they do want peace - why don't they give Hamas the west bank then?

Everyone "wants peace". The key issue is they all want peace on their terms.

 

do you mean West Bank or Gaza. Israel moved out of Gaza in 2005 and Hamas were voted in. Hamas charter is to eradicate Israel hence the trouble

West Bank elected not to vote in terrorists, hence the current peace

 

What's the point in Israel giving up it's territory? The Muslim people/nations around them won't be happy until Israel is completely gone, there won't be peace because they hate Israel and there's a seemingly barrel-less amount of terrorists out there to cause trouble.

If you corner someone they're bound to hit back hard. I don't see an easy way for this to be resolved.

 

Which is true for both isreal being cornered by the rest of hte middle east, and Gaza by Isreal.

 

I don't really know that much about it..... but where are these Israeli's going to go? The people in Gaza could just move to the other Palestinian area or to any of the countless countries surrounding it.. right?

 

You'd think, but even their "arab brothers" don't want them.

 

Hamas is an enemy of peace. It is dedicated to destroying the state of Israel; they say that any Palestinian who negotiates peace with Israel is a traitor.

Religion is the root of all evil. It's the 21st century. Why do whole cultures still believe in a book written over 1300 years ago? Pathetic. The Quran and the Bible are pretty good books, but that is it....they are just books. You just cannot live your life to the ideals of people from thousands of years ago.

They hold great historical value from times long ago, but really do you think the people that wrote these books would want them to be idolised and taken verbatim. Little excerpts taken out and distorted to fit any political view?

It's a shame that some Muslims believe that going on a plane, bus or shopping center with explosives strapped to themselves is a good idea. There is no respect for life and a brainwashing that what they are doing is what "god" would approve of.

I don't care if people want to worship a statue, a cow, the sun, a tree or a pebble. It's up to them, but when it involves killing people and whole nations buy into it, it really becomes a stain on humanity.

 

Bit of a soundbite.
The Palestinians are a different culture and arguably a race, not just some Muslims - they faced persecution in the surrounding Islamic countries too.
Yes, in the past many wars have been fought in the name of God, but often it boiled down to economics, trade, power, and land, religion was a way to get support for wars, you can't get the peasant to die for you to make some dosh as easily. In cultures and times where religion plays a big part in life naturally it will also be the cause of the trouble. In recent times, religion isn't as important in the west anymore. WW1 and 2 were about power, and land, like the wars over colonial terrotories were for decades before. After that in an increasing economic society there was the cold war - mainly between capitalist and communist countries. Even more recently, wars are over natural resources and also power struggles, to stop enemies from developing nuclear weapons etc.


"do you think the people that wrote these books would want them to be idolised and taken verbatim"
Yes, yes they did.

 

Sauce?

 

Take my word as the Bible.

 

wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!! some of those words could possibly be seen as provocative!!!!!!

 

The truth usually is.

 

an opinion????????

 

Religion obviously isn't the root of all evil or the eight members of the West Bristol Baptist Church Sewing Club would be jamming their needles into the eyes of every non-believer.

Bad people do bad things with or without religion.

 

amen!!!!!

 

Leaders will use religion to control the many, like little brainwashed robots and the promise of the everlasting afterlife or numerous virgins is a persuasive tool. They will send them out to blow themselves up and do their dirty deeds.

Religion is not an evil concept, per se, but once it has been filtered through the corrupt mind of a fanatic, then it can become whatever you want it to be. Catholic priests tend to use religion as a tool to conceal their lust for little boys. Muslim extremists use it to attack whatever whatever the hell they like. In this case Hamas's refusal to recognize the state of Israel.

To the lay man, such as myself, it appears wherever there are evil deeds, a religious connection is not too far behind.

 

Surely that says that religion isnt the root of it, but that mans sadistic mind is!!

 

Isn't that what I just said!!