Explosions & fatalities in Manchester

Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by hornetgags, May 23, 2017.

  1. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    What is important about Western foreign policy is that it has helped cause chaos. It didn't do so without help or exploiting some schisms that were already there, nor does it excuse middle eastern governments or terrorists. It can't on its own explain why one individual bombs and other doesn't, but it has clearly been a factor in the outcomes we have now and the resulting suffering and displacement of people.

    But it's fanciful to put the behaviour of the West on some kind of moral pedestal. In persuing unjustified war and invasion in Iraq thousands of war crimes were committed including the use of phosphorus and depleted uranium. Babies are still being born with deformities now as a consequence. Your notion that someone is accountable when an individual misdemeanour comes to light is fine on one very superficial level, but ignores thousands of killings and incidents of torture that are simply never addressed, because that was the way we undertook the war, a war we had no purpose in conducting, the ripples of which continue to cause us problems.

    You are old enough to remember Vietnam. This is not a new behaviour or a one off. If you get your head out of the sand, you can remain a patriot, retain the view that the British Armed forces are the most professional and disciplined in the world, but see the ramifications of poor political choices.
     
  2. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    What on earth do you mean by "fighting back"? An allied pilot drops a bomb and accidentally kills innocent civilians who are being held captive by ISIS, and you suggest that means that ISIS need to "fight back" against children watching a pop concert?

    What is frightening is you actually believe the rubbish you are posting.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  3. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    ZZ Top in strawman response shocker.

    Quelle surprise...

    You pick on one of the examples....ignore the other 2...don't worry it wasn't lost on me...respond with a ridiculous comment that the west would have condemned that soldier, so everything's ok as we have higher morals.

    Then provide a strawman argument with breathtaking ignorance that ISIS wouldn't use it as a recruiting tool. I'm pretty sure, your average goatherder doesn't read the Daily Mail, they'll just hear that the west bombed and killed civilians. Will they think it was accidental? I'm sure they will as ZZ Top said so, so it's justfied losses - that's exactly how they'll see it, won't they?

    Or would they think...go away and stop killing civilians?

    Perhaps you'd like to go and educate them and see how well you get on? Go for it, tell them we were trying to kill ISIS but we killed a couple of hundred civilians, but we think we got the ISIS fighters...so it's all good.
     
    GoingDown likes this.
  4. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Some answers in red above.
    But I notice you didnt even deny my conclusion to your bile.

    You really have a weird sense of logic that taken in other circumstances would be totally stupid. A policeman kills a crime suspect. In your world, it would be right if a relative of the suspect "fights back" by killing the policeman's 8 year old daughter.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
  5. WTF are you talking about "jingoistic bloodlust" In what way have I been proliferating those type of characteristics?

    I have been stating my point of view without personally insulting any of you that seem to disagree with me. It seems most of you cannot put your point of view without resorting to insults and innuendos, it strikes me that you lot are the "jingoistic" ones.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
  6. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    Another strawman...keep them coming.
     
    GoingDown likes this.
  7. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    You're the one advocating 'draconian measures', again you ignore the causes and focus on the symptoms.
     
  8. o_O
     
  9. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Come on then, as I am genuinely puzzled, where is this "strawman" that you are pretending I created.
     
  10. HappyHornet24

    HappyHornet24 Crapster Staff Member

    Hornet gags, genuine question. Are you of the belief that if the West withdrew its involvement in Syria, Afghanisthan, etc that ISIS would no longer be able to recruit and that its particular brand of terrorism would subside?
     
  11. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    Let me ask you a question, how do you know it wouldn't?

    Let me ask you another question...why are we selling arms to the Saudis with the Saudis arming ISIS in Syria? The UK government opposes the Assad regime, so if Assad is fighting ISIS, we're supporting ISIS.
     
  12. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    The Nazis invade England is 1941, they occupy and kill civilians along side resistance fighters who are viewed as terrorists by occupiers. How do you respond?

    Oh well, they didn't mean to kill civilians so no harm no foul, or they're killing civilians, I'm joining the resisitance to drive these people out of the country and if we can fight a guerrila war in their own country to disrupt them, then so be it.

    There's a strawman for you.
     
    GoingDown likes this.
  13. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Why don't you, for once in your life, instewad of wriggling like a worm, just answer a question - it is simple enough. You said I created a strawman, where is he? And why dont you answer HH24's question as well? You are you running away from the truth there as well?
     
  14. HappyHornet24

    HappyHornet24 Crapster Staff Member

    If you read my previous post, you'll see why I don't think simply withdrawing from those countries is the solution. The follow-up question you pose to me is a non sequitur. Nowhere have I defended our relationship with the Saudis - I think it is reprehensible. It is possible to have serious concerns about our foreign policy, but also to believe that it is not the sole reason we are suffering from terrorism at the hands of ISIS (or Daesh as I prefer to call them). As my previous post seems to have been too subtle, I'll spell it out - the terrorist group's aim is not that we should withdraw from places such as Syria; it wants to build a worldwide caliphate. The ideology behind this aim would remain, regardless of our foreign policy. Whether or not we should have a presence in countries such as Syria is a complex issue that I don't pretend to have the answer to; but I don't believe withdrawing from such places would end Daesh-linked terrorism.

    Hopefully this answers your question. Could you now answer mine that was posed in good faith - why do you think doing so would end terrorism of this kind?
     
  15. cyaninternetdog

    cyaninternetdog Forum Hippie

    Ariana Grande is going to do a benefit gig along with yawnmongers and Take That apparently. Hasnt Manchester suffered enough?
     
    Banjo likes this.
  16. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    First of all, can we stop treating all wars as identical. We never should have entered Iraq or Libya, but we needed to go to war with Afghanistan, and we should have entered Syria earlier.

    Of course war has severe repercussions. So does sitting idly by and letting a state funded terrorist group plan attacks against the West. So does sitting idly by and letting a government chemically massacre its own people.

    The world is no longer nicely divided into separate parts. All things will have consequences. ISIS grew in the stalemate, because they provided authoritarian law and order. This growing collective were always going to spill into the West.

    If the world wasn't so ****ed over by the idiotic decision to go to Iraq, then that law and order could and should have been introduced by the West. This was not a people being forced to be democratic, this was an advanced state of people demanding it, and being given genocide in return. They actively wanted help.

    War is never good - in fact it's nearly always horrific. But it can sometimes be the least-worse option.
     
  17. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    ISIS didn't form in a 'stalemate'. It formed inside a huge US detention centre in Iraq. It was a consequence of the invasion and Sunni defeat/humiliation.
     
  18. cyaninternetdog

    cyaninternetdog Forum Hippie

  19. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    The Voice of Reason likes this.

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