Explosions & fatalities in Manchester

Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by hornetgags, May 23, 2017.

  1. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    TBF when I working at QMUL the "Muslim" patrols were a couple (three?) of exceptionally self-important and mouthy blokes walking about in fancy dress and were about as representative of the local and student Muslim populations as Nigel Farrage is a man of/voice of "the people".

    I always found it amusing that whenever QMUL was highlighted (by the media) as a hotbed of Islamic radicalism is that it's also home to one of London's oldest Jewish cemeteries (the whole area has very Jewish "roots"). Also watching who "actually" make up the clientele of Brick Lane's bagel bakery is eye-opening.
     
  2. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    I truly have no idea why you bought Judaism into this (I would expect no better from PO).

    The point being made was that the authorities need to become tougher on places where radicalisation is taking place. Why should that not include universities?

    An FT report stated "At least 70 events featuring so-called “hate speakers” were held on university campuses last year, according to the government’s extremism analysis unit. Downing Street said that most of these occurred at four London institutions: Queen Mary University, King’s College, the School of Oriental and African Studies, and Kingston University"
     
  3. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    The Jews were brought in to indicate that in the Islamic Republic of East London, easy sitting and unguarded targets for the justifiable rage and anger of the countless radical Islamists waiting for the chance to enter the guardians of paradise are ignored. No graffiti, no vandalism no "spontaneous" demonstrations of the peoples' rage to rid the area of the symbols of the accursed Zionists.

    Is PO Philippine 'Orn?

    I think a point I was trying to make was that I would describe in my experience working in QMUL the "radical Islamists" were a minority of a minority. In fact, what my Muslim colleagues (some pious/observant others far less so) pointed out (Malay, Indonesian, Indian, Persian and Pakistani) was that virtually all of them were converts - few had actually been born into the faith. No-one was radicalised in QMUL, those who had "radical" idea(l)s were actually looked upon with some bemusement - most of the self-induced "radical Islamism" was fomented within the exceptionally grim, poverty stricken areas of East London surrounding QMUL. From what I remember of the area (after doing outreach work to local colleges) and, later (after reading Ed Hussein's excellent book) the nearest you could get to an academic hotspot of Islamic Radicalism was Newham College where it appeared to be a few mouthy idiots in fancy dress "playing up" to an audience of a few more deluded "lost souls" looking for some sort of a group identity.

    Ah yes, a credible source that uses such quantifiers as "At least..." and "...most of these...".
     
  4. Squibba

    Squibba Predictor Choker 14/15

  5. Squibba

    Squibba Predictor Choker 14/15

  6. jw-

    jw- Reservist

    It's not that simple, but I'm not sure that's what JC entirely means.

    The wars and interventions make it easier for these groups to recruit, so the West's action do make the situation worse. However ISIS will not stop just because the West leaves the Middle East alone, so they will have to be actively destroyed.
     
  7. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    It never ceases to amaze me that the world will lose its mind when lone nutter runs people over and knives a police officer, but barely blinks an eye when government forces kill dozens of children as "collateral damage".

    Just like Israel, the West is literally creating the threats of tomorrow with our actions. Something has to change. We need to be better.
     
  8. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss Squad Player

    Totally agree with the huge hypocrisy in the western press about the lack of reporting of US and Eu bombing on middle eastern schools and hospitals in comparison to terrorist attacks in Europe .

    But the bigger underlying picture as I see it is this ...

    Human beings are inherently spiritual. Anthropologists will tell you that there has never been a human tribe however isolated that does not have a spiritual belief system.

    The problem lies with organised religion , which is nothing more than the states tool to manipulate and control people through their inherent spirituality .

    I don't deny that at the core of all major religions , is an ethos of kindness , humanity and spirituality . But that exists in human beings whether there is organised reldion or not .


    The fact is that all the major religions , but especially Christianity,Judaism and Islam are nothing but tools of the state used to manipulate people , inspire hatred and entice them into acts of violence that has nothing but a negative affect upon society.

    The good bits about religion would exist without organised religion anyway .
    Millions of years of evolution has bred altruism into the human psyche which had thrived for millions of years before organised religion ever existed . It is that altruism and inter connectivity that enabled us to evolve beyond apes.

    Organised religion is nothing but a parasite upon humans inherent spirituality in that it uses rules and guilt to make people feel sh1t about themselves and thus make them more vulnerable to control .

    The extreme branches of Christianity , Judaism and Islam are all extremely sexist , patriarchal instsituitions designed by men in order to control women and children .

    The beauty that exists when you walk into a cathedral or synagogue or mosque is not an expression of that relegions doctrine but an expression of the beauty of the human spirit , irrespective of where they are from .
     
  9. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss Squad Player

    Are you proscribing that no human should have to take responsibility for their actions , just because by being human they are vulnerable to being manipulated ?

    Is a child who is brought up in a culture of domestic violence to be blamed for perpetuating that violence upon his own children ?

    Most serial killers have had horrific childhoods , are they just another lost and vulnerable young man?

    I get where you are coming from in that the indoctrinisation of young Islamic men is the problem not the religion itself , but to describe the cold blooded murderer of tens of innocent children and adults as "just a lost vulnerable young man " is quite astonishing .

    The man is not a robot . When he chose to go into that stadium with a bomb he had numerous chances to back out but he didn't , when he sat down at his seat with a bomb he had numerous chances to back out but he didn't etc etc etc.

    Ultimately I find the phrasing of your description as just another vulnerable young man quite despicable.

    It's important that in our quest to realise the truth behind a situation that we don't go so far the other way and try to justify the equal and opposite extreme.
     
  10. Squibba

    Squibba Predictor Choker 14/15

    Woah, wasn't defending him or justifying his actions in any way..

    I'm saying he's JUST a 23 year old man like many others in this country, it's not obvious to "spot" him like ***** such as Piers Morgan keep telling other Muslims to do. He didn't walk around with a big beard and backpack screaming Allahu Akbar down the street as some of the idiots on Twitter would have you believe.
     
  11. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Did I not read earlier in the week that he had been reported numerous times by members of his mosque to the authorities?

    Seems that even when the Muslim community actually do the thing that they supposedly don't do enough, it's ignored.
     
    CarlosKickaballs likes this.
  12. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss Squad Player

    Piers Morgan is a sensationalist, bigot who has been given a voice by the Western media .
    The western media is the modern replacement for the bible in that it is a tool to manipulate the population of the western world .

    I have serious problems with the lies spread by the media as I also have with the lies spread by the bible and the Koran .
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
  13. Of course it is terrible when innocent people are killed as "collateral damage", but there in itself is the difference. They are not being DELIBERATELY targeted, unlike the innocent Manchester victims and others that have been blown to pieces as the ACTUAL TARGETS!

    Furthermore, if the Islamists had not been using innocent people as human shields the "collateral damage" would not be any way near what it has been!
     
  14. Squibba

    Squibba Predictor Choker 14/15

    Lol are you crazy? America are literally just dropping bombs on areas of land, they don't care who else dies. Human shields haha that's inventive.
     
  15. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    It never ceases to amaze me how some supposedly intelligent people think that accidental deaths caused whilst trying to destroy the most evil group of people we have known (who are killing, torturing, raping and enslaving tens of children every day) is even remotely similar to specifically targeting civilian children at a pop concert.

    Unbelievable.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
  16. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    What a load of rubbish. If the stories are true, how do you know that the reports to police were ignored? Do you expect the authorities to have the full required 6 man surveillance team following everyone 24 hours a day, following someone that is reported as being a bit radical - in this case for about years?
     
  17. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    I'd ask you not to be so obtuse, but that would be breaking the habit of a lifetime, wouldn't it?

    Carry on, Captain Strawman.
     
    GoingDown likes this.
  18. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Well, if he was, then we wouldn't rely Muslims to report him as everyone else would witness it as well.

    The obvious point is that most of the radicalisation happens in the Islamic community. That is why we need your help.

    If you cant see that, and if you are a typical of the decent Muslims in your thinking that you can't help, then we really do have little hope. Our children, and their children, and their children will all grow up in a climate of fear.
     
  19. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Does that make them less dead then? Didn't think so.

    Know what else would have lowered civilian casualties? Not bombing them. Radical idea, I know.

    But it's easy to be all blase about innocent people being blown to bits when it's brown people on the other side of the world, isn't it? I doubt you'd be quite so understanding if it was someone you knew caught in the crossfire.
     
  20. Squibba

    Squibba Predictor Choker 14/15

    How do you want me to help?

    Furthermore why should I or any of us help?

    Stop bombing Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Iran etc etc. Take the troops out, leave the countries alone and then our children, their children won't all grow up in a climate of fear.
     
  21. Don't you ******* dare insinuate that I am racist!
     
  22. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    Unfortunately not. But it would be a start of something "different" and might lead to "something".

    Personally, I think Corbyn's speech was a master-stroke and showed how statesmanlike he could be. The audience's reception to, the frankly ludicrous, David Davis's and, the hateful/dreadful, Isabel Oakeshott's comments about Corbyn's speech on this weeks AQ were unexpected and possibly very hopeful.
     
  23. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    It seems to me that the only alternative put forward by Corbyn is to do nothing. How else is Corbyn, or you, Arakel or Squibba going to stop the extreme radical Muslims in their quest for the larger Islamic state through torture, slavery and genocide?

    Maybe, we should just sit on our hands rather than see the daily genocide carrying on in ISIS held territory, in an effort to put ourselves at risk. After all, it is everyone's right to turn a blind eye in the street if they see a horrendous crime being carried out on the other side of the road. If it is OK for an individual, then I suppose it is the right of a whole group of nations to turn a blind eye as well. It is a valid argument - and if we even manage to pretend this genocide isn't happening, it becomes an even more acceptable argument.

    But not one I subscribe to.
     
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  24. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    So you deny you're OK with killing brown people in other countries to keep the majority white population of the UK "safe" ? Ok, lets assume it's a just a case of ignorance of the scale of what's going on; here are some numbers for you.

    Fact: civilians in the Middle East are far more likely to be killed by Western Government forces than Western civilians are to die from ANY terrorist attack, never mind Islamic terrorists specifically.

    Fact: 300 Iraqi civilians died in the US strike on Mosul in March of this year. Currently, 23 people are confirmed dead from the Manchester concert suicide bombing.

    Fact: the IBC estimates Iraqi civilian casualties at well over 150,000 since the US invaded, and the IBC's estimates are frequently roundly criticised as being low. Many estimates place the casualties at over 500,000, and some sources even as high as 1 million.

    Fact:

    [​IMG]

    ^ not UK data but proportionately relevant.

    We "accidentally" kill more civilians than terrorists do on purpose by several orders of magnitude and yet persist in pretending we're justified in doing so because we're fighting "the bad guys". The media barely covers the civilian deaths, and you have to dig to find the actual figures and any half decent coverage.

    These numbers speak for themselves. If you now persist in insisting these civilian casualties are justified because we kill them "by accident"* then I'll draw whatever conclusions I please.

    *because clearly we couldn't possibly predict high civilian casualties bombing an area full of civilians.
     
  25. Squibba

    Squibba Predictor Choker 14/15

    AMERICANS KILL MORE SYRIANS THAN ANY MEMBERS OF ISIS DO.

    It's not hard to understand!
     
  26. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    So, if you are so unconcerned about the deaths caused by terrorists, why are you so against anyone trying to help the civilians being killed by ISIS every day? Surely the few that
    ...but hard, I suspect, for you to back up any such claim. But I ask you to try in the interests of fairness.
     
  27. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Saddam killed around 100,000 in just one chemical attack.

    I maybe those killed by terrorism is relatively inconsequential in your opinion, when compared with everything else, but I doubt if the mums of the Manchester victims, or the orphans left behind would agree with you.

    Corbyn doesn't think they are insignificant though, he is prepared to abandon those millions of potential victims of genocide across the Middle East, in a specific attempt to lower the number of terrorism victims.

    I note that you didnt bother to quote the number of innocent civilians killed by ISIS (that we are trying to prevent being killed), but then they don't matter either, do they!
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
  28. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    Who armed ISIS? Just sayin...
     
  29. Squibba

    Squibba Predictor Choker 14/15

    Where has America or the UK actually been successful?

    What country has come out better for it?

    Why not invade Saudi who's women's right as well as homosexuality rights are amongst the worst in the world. Oh no Trump just went there and got a fat gold chain. Plus they still supply oil so we won't go there.

    The hypocrisy is disgusting!
     
  30. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    That is like saying, for example, that the police are a failure, or that the medical services are a failure, because crime is still committed and people still die of illnesses. In both instances the situation would be a lot worse without the police and doctors. You cant keep trying to justify everything by suggesting that because something hasn't been eradicated, it is a failure.

    You talk of hypocrisy with nations, but what about your own hypocrisy just within this thread. One post of yours says this...

    And I won't lie, if you're a twisted twisted human being and want to interpret a line in the Quran to suit your political agenda, then it is possible to hide behind that as a reason.

    But killing kids is completely unjustifiable for even the most warped mind, there's no way they can twist anything from Islam to use it as a reason for their actions so I just don't get it?


    Then you spend the rest of the thread trying to introduce politics to reduce their culpability - and suggesting that Muslims in this country can't help root the problem out.
     
  31. You appear to be very fond of facts, well here is one for you: -

    All the instances you quote above may well be accurate, but it is still a FACT that none of them are DELIBERATELY aimed at INNOCENT civilians. HOWEVER TERRORISTS BOMBS ARE........FACT!
     
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  32. HappyHornet24

    HappyHornet24 Crapster Staff Member

    I have no wish to defend our actions abroad or our foreign policy. But I do think that anyone linking either of these things directly with terrorist attacks is woefully naive (&, yes, I include Corbyn, although I think he is worse than naive). Equally, implying that anyone who chooses to go down the path of radicalisation does so simply because they feel "disenfranchised" is, I feel, wide of the mark.

    Sadly, I think Iram Ramzan, writing in The Times today "(Voices From Manchester") strikes a chord when she highlights the role that "ideology" plays in the mind of a terrorist. The same ideology that led a man suspected of planning to bomb the Ministry of Sound nightclub to say "No one can even turn around and say "Oh they were innocent" - those slags dancing around".

    Squibba/Arakel, I don't disagree that our foreign policy is flawed. Do I think that the West's actions are always defendable? No. Do I think that the lack of press coverage of atrocities abroad is defendable? No. Do I think we should be involved at all in Syria/Libya, etc? Truthfully, I don't know. But one thing I am pretty certain of is that you are wrong, Squibba, to imply that British withdrawal from any involvement in such countries would end domestic terrorism.
     
  33. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    I'd watch this if I were you, might curb your jingoistic bloodlust.

    Arakel will know about this video, it was leaked by Pfc Bradley Manning (now known as Chelsea Manning) who was sentenced to 35 years in prison for whistleblowing and served 7 years before having the sentenced commuted by Obama. She was released a few weeks ago.




    Blackwater shooting at innocent civilians in Iraq.




    US Soldier kills 16 civilians including 9 children, then tried to burn the bodies.




    The UK and US have lucrative arms deals with Saudi Arabia, who are known state sponsors of terrorism...yet the money rolls in and we turn a blind eye. They're the ones arming ISIS in Syria.

    So, Manchester was a horrible and disgusting act of terrorism, but you're only looking at the symptoms...look at the cause and don't be so naive.
     
    Squibba likes this.
  34. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Can you not see the difference? FFS! The US solidiers that killed innocent civilians on purpose in a cold and calculating manner would be treated with disgust by the West, and most likely tried and sentenced to severe penalties. It is not something that we would let pass by lightly. Whereas the terrorists are treated like heroes by their comrades as killing civilians, including women and children is expressly what ISIS are setting out to do.

    Every time I take a look at these threads I am astounded by the complete and utter idiocy posted by some people.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  35. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    And I'm astounded by your ignorance that you think that regardless how disgusted the west may find it, the people who it's happened to don't care and don't make the distinction - they just see it as the west/infidels and they want revenge and to fight back. The only way they know how to is to martyr themselves.

    I can't believe how ignorant you actually are and it's frightening.

    You're as bad as Fallon:

     

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