Explosions & fatalities in Manchester

Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by hornetgags, May 23, 2017.

  1. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    A large proportion of those returning have been imprisoned. All are monitored by the security services who take a view on what kind of intelligence asset they may be. I don't think anyone is just getting back in and being left to it unless they are well and truly under the radar.

    It would have felt right to not allow them back in, but I doubt that we are allowed under international law to do so, because it would be dumping the problem. We would never get to deport anyone to anywhere.

    Sadly, it is individuals known but considered low risk who seem to be the danger at the moment. How the security services deal with them is a big challenge because it is hard to know what is in their minds. How did they become 'known'? It may be that they have committed offences or further offences can be framed that would allow intervention. I'd be for a zero tolerance for flirting with extremism.
     
  2. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    But there is already a strategy for this: Prevent
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...t_data/file/97976/prevent-strategy-review.pdf
     
  3. Lloyd

    Lloyd Reservist

    In isolation, no, it isn't the answer. But it must be considered - alongside the other long term measures you mention. Of course, internment without trial is unattractive, but its less unattractive than teenage girls being blown to bits at a pop concert
     
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  4. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    So what happens to the people that get released eventually with no charge. Huge compensation payments and likely radicalised whilst in there.
    Might as well just assassinate them. Cheaper in the long run but that then makes us as bad as them.

    Intelligence to planned attacks, education to prevent radicalisation, life sentences for perpetrators. It's difficult but I'm afraid we do need to keep an emotional distance from decisions like this and refrain from knee jerk reactions.
     
  5. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    While I agree with you in principle, Meister - as I say above, all of those powers and strategies already exist (well, not life sentences, but lengthy imprisonment). And they didn't stop the attack.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  6. Lloyd

    Lloyd Reservist

    Yes, that's another option I'd like our security services to have
     
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  7. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    You do appreciate that the extremists actively pursue "martyrdom", don't you? Assassination isn't going to stop the attacks, in fact it will stimulate them.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
  8. Lloyd

    Lloyd Reservist

    But at least they're 'martyrdom' would be at a time and a place of our choosing. It's not going to happen, so don't worry about it.
     
  9. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    I'm not worried about it, just trying to point out that using "traditional" anti-terrorist strategies of the sort you have been mentioning is pretty ineffective against a threat with little in the way of hierarchy, no compunction about killing civilians, and which is not only unafraid of death, but actively welcomes it.

    I have no idea what the answer is but it sure ain't easy.
     
  10. It would not be impossible to enshrine in law that compensation would be entirely at the discretion of the government if they felt they had made a genuine mistake, however any released detainees should not be allowed to pursue compensation through the courts. I am not advocating internment without very strong suspicions of the internees sympathy's, however I expect some will be wrongly detained and in those cases hopefully the government will compensate them. However, I would rather that a few have their civil liberties temporarily infringed than make the mistake of leaving just one lunatic out there who goes on to kill the innocent.

    What I am advocating is that those who the security services are virtually certain are involved, but cannot produce enough evidence to charge them in the normal way can be picked up. This way many suspected terrorists could be removed from our streets and make our country that bit safer. Again I know this is draconian, but draconian terrorism requires a draconian response, whether it is considered PC or not.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
  11. Banjo

    Banjo Reservist

    Sickening beyond words again, I'd like to say it's genuinely shocking , but is it? Someone was beheaded with a knife in broad daylight on the streets not long ago, so why wouldn't what happened a couple of days ago be possible? There are clearly no limits to this kind of mindset and no mercy of any kind.

    Perhaps a good start, and only a start, to stopping this sort of Jihadist terrorism would be to stop the flow of arms to its financiers and backers.

    The sight of Trump shedding crocodile tears and branding the suicide bombers 'evil losers' as he signs a $110 billion arms deal with state sponsors and supporters of ISIS, Saudi Arabia, was sickening.
     
  12. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    The problem is that internment would then come to be seen as some sort of "martyrdom" as well. Meaning there would always be more jihadists willing to join so that they can be "martyred" too.

    I just don't think any conventional anti-terror measures are likely to be especially effective.
     
  13. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    What if it made it more likely? Would it still satisfy you?
     
  14. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Islamic terrorism has many debatable causes, but one certainly is the regional pissing match between Saudi Arabia and Iran as to who can provide the leading Islamic Theology. Both use extreme versions of their religion as a matter of social control.

    They pour money into exporting their religious teaching abroad. We use this influence for our regional aims.

    In the UK this means a set of values almost utterly at odds with the rest of the UK including most Muslims.
     
  15. Lloyd

    Lloyd Reservist

    Still desperately looking for reasons why 'it's all our fault', I see! Wake up, mate
     
  16. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Sigh.

    One of the most depressing aspects of these events is that not even the death of eight year old girls is enough to stop the 'lock someone, anyone up' brigade from sucking the air out of the room with their selfish personal grandstanding.

    I'm all for throwing away the key and lethal force when required. But not for throwing a can of petrol on it.

    Frankly, it's not my fault, or yours or anyone else unconnected to foreign policy. See if you can manage two lines of thought at once, what we do now and how we promote peace in the future. If you think that will be through $100bn of arms sales to religious nutter head choppers then I suggest you review your POV.
     
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  17. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    I see a couple of arguments brewing. Probably not the time or the thread tbh.
    Maybe terrorism policy can go in the Politics section.
     
    Moose likes this.
  18. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    One interesting aspect of this particular event is the number of leaks coming out of the US. Yesterday their media were revealing details our police were opting not to make public to protect the integrity of the investigation. And then this afternoon the New York Times has published crime scene photographs which, again, would never be publicly revealed yet. In each instance intelligence and information has been shared with the US intelligence community and ended up in the papers. Really poor form.
     
  19. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    It's all about the scoop and the exclusive over there, no consideration for the ongoing investigation or the feelings of the victims families. Disgraceful.
     
  20. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Sounds like a shopping centre in Bristol has been evacuated - guess everyone just has to be that extra cautious and wary..
     
  21. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    It truly is frustrating the empty words the journalists and politicians use post any terror strike..."made us stronger", "we will stay united", "we will not be beaten" etc etc. How about doing something to stop the funding (Saudi) and the reason why we need to be friends with the perpetrators of terror (arms sales, oil)

    It is also so depressing the average persons reaction..."it's the bleeding muslims", "kick them all out", "shut our borders". Those people that are carrying out these crimes are, more often than not, already living in UK and have done for a very long time. How about looking st why and how they were radicalised and, if from Uk, shut down that place of worship/school/university
     
    Moose likes this.
  22. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    False alarm.
     
  23. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    Whoa! Shut down a university with a student population of perhaps 10,000, and require them all to restart degrees elsewhere, not to mention threatening the livelihoods of those working there (plus all of the knock-on implications for resources in other institutions where the students might end up) because a couple of extremists attended it? Are you serious? Would you be happy if our club was shut down because of the antics of a few hooligans, and we all had to choose to support different clubs and those working at the club ended up on the dole?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
  24. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    Universities should not oppress free speech but should not allow speakers with known radical views and ideas to air their bilge to impressionable young minds

    There were measures bought in that required universities to vet speakers thoroughly and make sure that those with extremist views are countered by an alternative argument put forward at the same event. To me this does not go far enough.

    Any uni that does not comply should be dealt with and the ultimate sanction should be closure.

    Queen Mary University, King’s College, SOAS and Kingston University used to be the main culprits a while back

    Keighley - what would you do?
     
  25. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    I certainly wouldn't shut down universities, which are some of this country's best assets. That looks to me like giving in to extremism, and would have numerous knock-on effects for those studying and working there, almost all of whom will be entirely blameless and won't even have had an opportunity to be involved in the decision to invite the person in question. Essentially you are punishing the many for the errors of a very small few (hence my hooliganism analogy). It would also impact the local economy in those areas. If we think this is a problem, then consider some measure like significant financial penalties for universities, or for those who sit on the university's governing bodies (though not to the extent that closure is the only viable option).

    But in any case, surely the internet is a much greater problem - at least in this country (of course places of education can and do foment extremism in some Muslim countries).
     
  26. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    The following comments explain why such measures, despite appearing obvious to the people without the knowhow, wouldn't work:

    Wallace said internment would be counter-productive. Speaking on ITV’s Good Morning Britain, he said: “We need to keep our communities on side and if we don’t produce evidence and act within the rule of law and just start rounding people up and put people in internment camps, what we found in Northern Ireland was the community felt they were under persecution and stopped engaging with the police and stopped engaging with the intelligence services and that set us back probably 20 years in counter-terrorism.”

    He added: “If we start just scooping people up and putting them away what are their families and other people to think, if it turns out as it was in internment [in Northern Ireland] huge numbers of people had nothing to do with it? That’s the big challenge here: intelligence is not always evidence.”

    He said reintroducing internment would be “retrograde step”, adding: “The majority would come from the Muslim communities – that would turn communities against us and our police would not want that. A policeman or policewoman would say that’s a bad idea.”
     
  27. Squibba

    Squibba Predictor Choker 14/15

    @wfcmoog - "Young Muslim men read this bile and realise their only friends are the radical clerics who want to place a gun in their hand. And so the cycle is perpetuated"

    I want to know what you mean by this? It's not an attack, I'm just genuinely curious as to how you think this happens?

    It's not the normal, everyday young Muslim men like myself who are easily brainwashed. The vast majority of these terrorists are not born into Islam, they're vulnerable people who may have been radicalised in prison, mentally ill people who some would class as "loners" etc, they're the ones being brainwashed, converted and then doing the bidding.

    Anyway, I've been thinking about it all week and there is just no way in hell anyone can claim killing INNOCENT CHILDREN as an act of God. I mean 8 years old!?

    It makes no sense, there's no way any terrorist can find/twist one iota of support for that disgusting behaviour in Islam or in the Quran. I just don't get it, why kids, so sickening.
     
  28. Diamond

    Diamond Squad Player

    That's because you're a decent human being. The people killing the public are so warped that every life they take is just a number.
     
  29. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    @Squibba I've seen a lot of reactionary anti Muslim rhetoric as usual after the latest attack.

    You're an educated lad from a reasonably affluent area, but for a young man who is angry and disaffected and then subjected to hate, I can't imagine it's more difficult for the hate preachers to radicalise him if he feels like white people are all his enemy.

    Just my view and certainly not intended to apply to all or even many young men, but it only needs a handful
     
    Squibba likes this.
  30. Squibba

    Squibba Predictor Choker 14/15

    My point being, for arguments sake say it's for Islam, say the Paris attacks, 9/11 etc are all done (in the minds of these terrorists) as some kinda twisted political revenge or to defend the religion because Bush & Blair invaded Iraq and Afghanistan etc. I'm being very vague but that is where this all stems from right?

    And I won't lie, if you're a twisted twisted human being and want to interpret a line in the Quran to suit your political agenda, then it is possible to hide behind that as a reason.

    But killing kids is completely unjustifiable for even the most warped mind, there's no way they can twist anything from Islam to use it as a reason for their actions so I just don't get it?

    Is it now a case of just bomb wherever will cause the most upset and grief?

    Sorry the post is badly written, my point is kinda jumbled in my head too but I hope it makes enough sense.
     
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  31. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Reservist

    Absolutely sickening attack that has been condemned by all right minded people, whatever their faith, from around the world.

    And for that reason sometimes the best response is to do nothing. Of course security needs to remain tight and I think the security and intelligence services have been doing an amazing job in that regard.

    Although each attack is appalling they are still quite rare. Of course this is of little comfort to the victims and I would never down play their suffering. But at the same time we should attempt to keep our freedoms and way of life as intact as possible because to change our values in response to these attacks means the terrorists win.

    I believe that this was such an unjustifiable target, to attack it can only weaken the terrorists position. It is easier to recruit radicals to their cause when it is seen as a war against the west and they aim their attacks at political and military targets. But an attack that deliberately targeted a venue full of kids can only fill the most sick and extreme minds with pride. I can't see it helping to recruit anyone who has even the smallest scrap of decency.

    If we react in such a way that innocent people suffer then that is only likely to strengthen the terrorists hand just as this attack on innocents has weakened it.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  32. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    It's a really interesting question of our times.

    Do we crack down on the freedom of expression, because we have been to soft, to protect those which are vulnerable?

    Or, do we accept that the internet is too big to tame, allow all views to be aired but forcefully counter them by constantly revisiting and defending our own values?
     
  33. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    Yep, the "suspect communities" thesis. Pretty well established within terrorism/security studies now.
     
  34. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    The problem with the internet is that no matter what checks and limitations the Government want to put on it, they will ultimately fail, it really isn't hard to hide yourself and there really isn't much anyone can do about it.
     
  35. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I think that there are many reasons for the atrocities, not simple ones like Blair/Bush actions in the region. Quite often the videos that accompany such atrocities do not even mention such invasions or attacks in the Middle East, but talk instead of "non-believers" or "infidels".

    The Manchester bombing was committed by someone who was helped by the West in Libya as he came from an anti Gaddaffi background and his father fought against Gaddaffi.

    Then you have to consider that ISIS are carrying out similar atrocities against fellow Muslims - killing, maiming and torturing Shia children is an everyday occurrence over there.

    Then you also have to consider that many of the perpetrators are initially decent people, living normal lives, in comfortable families.

    In my opinion, trying to nail down the "reason" for these atrocities, is like a finger in the dyke - there are far too many, and 99% of them are false, being excuses used to recruit and further their ultimate goals, rather than genuine reasons.

    I think the only way to stop it all, is for us all to become"extreme" Muslims ourselves. That way ISIS will achieve their ultimate aims and will only commit atrocities on those that don't follow their mantra 100%.

    Failing that, I repeat what I have said many times before. Apparently, the latest bomber was reported to the authorities several years ago and it is likely nothing was done either because there was no evidence, or because it is impossible to follow everyone that is reported over many years. So, in my view, the 99% of decent Muslims (and non Muslims too) have to make a concerted effort to report suspected radicalism, but in their numbers. If someone is reported 20 or 30 times, then there is a good chance that something will be done. A new whistleblower culture must develop.

    Of course, at the moment, we don't really know how successful the current arrests are being. But it demonstrates how quickly things can move once decent evidence is available. Quite often, it is many small bits of information, co-ordinated, will bring great results.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017

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