Covid-19 Virus

A cynical tin-foil hat wearer might also point out the financial liabilities / contractual penalties of 'some' universities, who fully outsource the management of their halls, purposely not allowing customers students to use them...

Are you insinuating the VCs (and by extension PVCs) are not doing their 'adequately' financially compensated for jobs?

 

I'm certainly suggesting a degree of complacency/looking the other way/crossing fingers and hoping for the best...

 

First of all, my posts were nothing to do with the Daily Mail, they were based on what I have personally seen and heard, and are a reflection of what students have been boasting about themselves, including my niece, who could easily live at home with her parents near Nottingham, but prefers to be in the Halls on the lash with her new mates. She has her own room, but doesn't think of wearing a mask when she leaves it to go and get food or to the toilets as she would be the outlier.

Secondly, it was clear that many students were infected before even arriving at Uni, that is why the numbers increased so dramatically over the first couple of days into their freshers week. If they had any sense, they would have been careful before leaving home and arrived uninfected. I have nothing but sympathy for those students that have acted responsibly throughout and are now locked down in their rooms. They should be equally damning of their fellow students who are not acting responsibly, as they are being directly punished by their irresponsible behavior. But if you asked how many would like to swap their situation with the millions of old people who are isolating in their homes for months, not 14 days, without the internet, I doubt if they would take up the offer.

Thirdly, I am critical of everyone that flouts the social distancing rules, old, young, students, workers, protesters whether from right, left or wherever they claim to be from.

Fourth, I'm critical of all those that seek to make excuses for the above, quite often with a total lack of perspective. For example, suggesting that because of climate change they have now got some excuse for not social distancing. Highly paid toffs going on the piss in the City without following the SD rules are just as bad, or worse.

Fifth, it isn't about BLAME. I'm not BLAMING students. It is about the behavior of some of them, and the strange excusing of their behavior by others that annoys me. In the same way as if we see someone breaking the rules, say not wearing a mask when they should, we aren't blaming them for what has happened or what is happening, but we are critical as their behavior may be contributing to more infections and deaths.

Sixth, trying to create an us v them, young v old culture isn't at all helpful. Students have parents and grandparents, they are not immune from the consequences. They are also "enjoying" the consumerism that has fueled this climate change, it isn't just the older population. I'm not going to be around when the consequences of climate change take real effect, but it doesn't stop me, and my fellow middle aged/old aged people taking steps to try and alleviate the consequences for the next generations. Take a look at the bins outside students accommodation and see how much they separate their rubbish into recyclables, etc, if you can see past the empty cans and bottles.

 

I think it's bad form for anyone (and especially the government) to blame any particular sector of society for the spread of the virus. However it's also true that the sudden movement of large numbers of people around the country, be they students or not, is bound to result in an upsurge in the rate of infections.

 

Old people are not forced to isolate in their homes, and are free to go outside.
Old people are not restricted to only their bedroom.
Old people are not forced to isolate at all, and are allowed to go out in public as long as they follow the same laws as any other adults, whereas entire buildings of students are being forced to quarantine whether they have had contacted anyone positive or not, and have the threat of being kicked out of university even if they haven't broken the law.
Old people are not forced to rely on food deliveries from a single source with no accountability.


Also - old people can also get the internet. Have you been on Facebook recently?

 

So.... as a few here predicted... all lockdown did was wreck the economy, destroy peoples lives, and move cases to the right a few months. Still I’m sure everyone enjoyed the weekly evening saucepan banging.

 

ZZ is living proof older people have the internet.

 

Many old people are being told to stay shielding due to their underlying conditions. Others may be able to have a break now after months of being isolated, but they are likely to have those re-imposed in the near future. Others are restricted to their bedrooms, such as those in Care Homes where there is an outbreak, for example. What a strange point to raise!

Of course, students that are now having to pay for the excesses of others, and the Uni's need to get that aspect sorted.

I'm obviously not talking about all OAP's, but all over the world there are loads isolating and they don't all have the internet. And no, I don't go on Facebook.

 

I’m sure it also saved 100s of thousands of lives. The best part of 50k died with a lockdown.

It wasn’t necessary to reduce ordinary care to the degree it was. That was a failure. But it doesn’t change the dilemma. If you go for ‘herd immunity’ thousands will die and many more will have long term health consequences from Covid.

Whatever people choose though and there are arguments both ways, for Christsakes no one say ‘just protect the vulnerable’. It’s a lie. Anyone receiving care from care workers who live in the community is highly vulnerable given our current ability to test and trace. So will be any older or vulnerable person attending hospital for any other reason. If you want no further lockdown have the balls to admit what it means for Granpops and lockdown advocates can own the general health consequences of that.

 

I think it is a shame that in this world we are not allowed to discuss the reasons why we are having problems, I wonder how you and anyone else actually ever sorts problems out, if the causes cannot be identified or discussed?

 

Absolutely. And especially the movement of young people that have been encouraged to use pubs and restaurants to get the economy up and running.

But, as you allude to, this was entirely predictable and is another monumental gaffe by a government that seems intent to fall into the traps everyone else can see but itself, before an embarrassing U-turn/ egg on the face moment further down the line.

My whole point was made because there is a clear anger at students, when looking at mainstream media articles, Twitter and hearing anecdotes. I've heard many (in my experience often Boomer Mail readers from the Home Counties) express a real anger/ irritation towards students: they 'don't know how lucky they are' and they 'bang on about how they're being imprisoned, they just make me so angry'. It seems to be number one on the list of grievances.

If you're saying that the first thing that comes to mind when you think of students is gratitude that the majority are ruining the most formative time of their lives in terms of future relationships, friends, education, careers and future wealth, because they're protecting others from a disease that affects them the least (but the idiots in the minority should be punished), then fine. Obvious, but probably doesn't really need mentioning. Just like I know people in care homes who stubbornly refuse to not go to shops, hug loved ones and refuse to wear masks before returning home, but I don't go around telling anyone that will listen that old people are angering me. In fact, I know so many people that break social distancing rules, who themselves are self-righteous (and manage to blame students!).

If you think it's incredibly irresponsible of the government to encourage millions of students to move across the country and converge in shared halls, without having sufficient testing/ track and trace/ social distancing in place (when everything could have been done remotely), then again I'd agree. The vast majority of people in their age group would be symptomless, so it was an obvious accident waiting to happen.

You say we're all in this together, but that is only partly true. You have the vulnerable who have generally lived a good life, but are having a tough time now. They won't be able to live their everyday lives until a vaccine comes along. Then you have the young, who barely even know they have the disease, but who are paying tens of thousands to essentially contract the disease and be force quarantined, will be paying for the whole thing with the worst prospects of any group that haven't lived the vast majority of their lives already, whilst also being publicly blamed for it. Then you have the boomers, who generally have bigger houses, gardens, nice pensions and despite the fact that they're likely to be okay if they catch it, are a bit worried about themselves, and therefore are happy to shut themselves away and get annoyed at the young. They're the ones who incidentally have (again) generally benefitted the most financially from the virus, through share and house price increases.

So if this isn't an age thing, why do the boomers end out on top, and why do the young get blamed yet again? Could it be that political decisions are made without the young as a priority? Hmm... room for thought.

 

I imagine the government is now hastily writing up the evidence supporting the 10pm pub curfew:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54451367

Good to see some challenge at last rather than waving everything through.

 

Personally I think the 10pm ban makes sense in the surface, it would have stopped me when I went out for a few drinks and ended up staying out until 1am not socially distancing like I had done earlier in the night.

But that's just my opinion, and for a government banging on about being guided by the science it's time they shared the science.

 

Yes, I saw Angela Rayner told by Piers Morgan to challenge the government this morning on GMB, and she has obliged.

 

But it’s well known it was all the hedonistic raves that caused the spread in care homes...

 

I have to say, I only ever know what Piers Morgan is saying or doing thanks to you. You carry out a fine public service!

 

So Scotland is effectively closing the pubs. How long unti lwe follow suit?

 

Also the reasons prisons needed 23 hour solitary confinement.

If all prisoners had common sense, quarantined/got tested before moving in and were responsible there'd be no transmission.

Unfortunately many of them just kept partying, drinking cider and shagging each other. Their own fault.

 

Seeing as she says jump and Boris always says how high, I expect by the weekend.

 

Just to be factual, most certainly will pay 10s of thousands over their lifetime for their degrees. Unless you mean they aren't paying that for just this year.

Page 7, figure 2a

https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/bns/BN217.pdf#page=3

 

Just confirmed in Nottingham, that the increases in cases in Nottingham are "almost exclusively" in student areas. Whilst over a third of other wards (like mine) in Nottingham have shown a significant decrease in new cases. Student now isolating just said "What does the government expect with all the fresher week parties going full swing".

 

I wonder if the SNP are still the flavour of the month in Scotland? Jimmy Krankie gets more ridiculous each day.

 

Although I agree with you to a degree that this is an issue, the fact that the boomer generation is currently travelling Europe mean any attempt to control the virus is futile and is just as big of a problem which seems to be not have been addressed. But gotta keep your voters happy I guess....

 

Really? Scotland has consistently been much stricter, surely?

 

If you go on the Moneysavingexpert website and try out the student loans repayment calculator, a student borrowing the full fees, and the average maintenance loan, starting on the average graduate wage £23k with salaries increases and inflation at 2% then, by the time a student has been working for 30 years and his debt is written off, he would have actually paid about £5650 linked to inflation or £3,430 in todays money against what he owes. Then there are all the students who drop out, or not get jobs straight away, or lose a job, or work overseas, etc.

 

[/QUOTE]

I think salary increases at 2% is probably quite conservative especially on that starting salary. It would put graduates with teen years experience at 28k.

 

I think salary increases at 2% is probably quite conservative especially on that starting salary. It would put graduates with teen years experience at 28k.[/QUOTE]

Maybe, I just used the first figure I saw when I googled it.

https://www.savethestudent.org/student-jobs/whats-the-expected-salary-for-your-degree.html

and I used the websites default choice of 2%.

London grads would be higher though.

 

Anyone who thinks that the return of university students was not going to cause Covid outbreaks is incredibly naive, or simply ignorant about the infectiousness of the virus, and the conditions in which students live. The idea of a “Covid-secure campus” is utterly laughable.

No doubt this has been exacerbated by some misbehaviour, but it was inevitable that it would happen irrespective of that. As, indeed, has been the case with schools. Have Covid outbreaks in schools been caused by wild parties?

Like everything else in the pandemic, it is a question of balance. If we think that the value of students returning to campuses outweighs the negative consequences, we have to accept that incidence will increase. Of course there should be measures to control misbehaviour, but making out that this is purely the fault of irresponsible students is (and I am trying to put this as neutrally as I can) a very incomplete view of the situation.

 

Students returning was going to cause outbreaks and really the only way to avoid it would have been a huge testing drive to ensure students are tested before moving back, but that is really only enforceable in halls.

The only problem with how students are getting treated is that they are being lazily dealt with by universities treating them like a captive audience and boarding school students rather than adult customers they should be providing a top service to.

 

Yes, I agree with your last paragraph.Although we are trying to convince our students that our “blended learning” package is just as good as the usual offering (it’s not).

As I posted earlier though, the funding model makes it crucial for universities to get students into accommodation. I think VCs should shoulder some of the blame for not trying to negotiate some means with government whereby - at least for this year - there was some replacement to that funding so that students didn’t have to return to campus (presuming we think that the risks to public health of doing that are too great).

 

Hence why this makes we question the vested interest when the Tories privatized this debt. A high interest rate was then charged above inflation and then the government guaranteed these loans. Basically handing over to the business in the long term. Basically just screwing tax payers over.

 

At a school meeting 5 years ago they told us 80% of Uni students will not pay back all of their loan in full.