League Cup 3rd Round

Two youngsters for Watford held their own so well that Spurs made three midfield/forward subs to try and get into the game and we still having people moaning on here.....


Face. Meet palm.

 

As much as it wasn’t a red card, the game was still 10 men each after the sending-off and we exploited that for our equaliser with Success running into the channel...

 

There are a few players that didn't cover themselves with glory last night, such as Masina, Navarro, Sema and Wilmot (who I thought did pretty well). But what on earth do people expect?

Being pretty much thrown in against top opposition, after months/years in a totally different country/league and level of opposition, and with very few competitive matches since they arrived.

I get fed up with those that make snap judgements on players after a matter of minutes. Is it an extension of everybody wanting everything NOW these days?

Give them a chance, they need encouragement rather than condemnation at this stage of their career. It is often those that start off slowly tend to grow into better assets than those that start really well.

 

Surely it's harsh to call the Navarro sub 'needless' when we don't know the reason for it?

 

Deep joy, another spineless ***** who only has eyes for the "big clubs".[/QUOTE]

Corrected for you now

 

That's just your opinion with regards to substitutions. There's nothing to be even handed about as far as I'm concerned as I think the substitutions were absolutely fine.

We lost because of the penalty incident. The penalty looked soft to me. Was there contact with Alli's foot when Kabasele tried to play the ball? In slow motion it looks like there was. Kabs did make contact with the ball though, it was his foot that touched the ball and you can see it deviate, he slid his foot underneath Alli's foot, but he did touch Alli's foot. Now, the next thing is if you play the ball and touch the opponent in doing so, is it automatically a foul? It's a technical question but it is one of those decisions that solely lies with the referee. If he doesn't give it no one can complain as it looks like Alli dived. If he does give it, then you could say Kabs touched Alli's foot. The referee is backed both ways, it just depends on what he wants to do.

Look at Mitrovic on Saturday for Fulham. He had two headers, and used our defender to give himself levity. It's clear he's holding down our players, but no foul is given. The same thing occurred for United against Derby. Fellani is all over the defender at the back post when he scores, but it's allowed to stand and that was even WITH VAR. So I would say, touching an opponent is not enough to be considered a foul.

So, with the penalty, I think it was a dive, but I understand why he gave it. Now, to the red card. Under no circumstances could that have been considered a correct decision. This is the thing that cost us the match. After that our defence consisted of only Mapps, Cathcart and Masina. It allowed enough space for Tottenham to run through and score the second goal. So that one incident, cost us 2 goals.

 

Still dont think it was a penalty with the way Ali throws himself to the ground. There was one angle last night which showed Ali going over in the stereotypical diving starfish mannar leaving a trailing leg to try and make sure of contact. Not to mention there is a gap between Kabs making contact and Ali sstarting to go over. Then again the ref didnt have the benefit of multiple replays and there was contact

 

I was at the game. The red card was a turning point but I disagree it cost us the game. As soon as the sending-off happened, Wilmot went to CB which many will say is his natural position. We weren’t short at the back as you say. We were still facing up to Spurs even in numbers as Aurier had hobbled off for them after making all 3 changes. It was Spurs who were short at the back. What was actually worse in terms of costing us, was we won a corner at 1-1 and for some unexplained reason, defenders piled into the box. Masina, Cathcart and Mariappa all forward. Low and behold, the corner breaks down and Spurs hit us on the break with pace and numbers. Defensive naivety cost us just as much as the red card.

I don’t want to take anything away from the performance. The players we had out there were outstanding against more illustrious names. Mr Mason was wrong with the red card but I think it was a penalty. Before that Mason was having an okay game. We just let ourselves down a couple of times with decision-making.

And UEA is correct, I don’t know why Navarro went off. But he wasn’t struggling up to that point and there was no indication of an injury. To me it came across as unnecessary tinkering with the defence. If it transpires he was injured, fair enough.

 

What was the big decision that went against us at Fulham?

 

I hate to think this is true, but there have been far too many incidents in the past, that I think certain referees want to help the bigger clubs and go looking for things to help them. Be this intentional or subconscious, I do think it goes on.

How often have we had a dubious decision go our way against one of the top 6 clubs? I can't think of many. Plenty of examples can be found the other way around though. This sort of thing is to the detriment of football. It's such a shame as it damages the intergrity of the game.

 

It sounds like you're almost apologetic to the referee's actions. The fact Spurs were down to 10 men because of injury is to our advantage. It's not the responsibility of the referee to balance things up just to make it even numbers.

Clearly it's better to have 11 v 10 rather than 10 v 10. As far as I'm concerned he gave us an unnecessary disadvantage and the fact Spurs scored a second goal soon after underlines that. With 11 on the pitch I doubt Spurs would have scored the second goal, but there is every reason to believe we would still have scored another goal, as we actually did anyway even with 10 players.

 

Navarro went down with cramp before he came off.

 

The red card after 34 minutes.

 

Couldn't give a flying fishing tackle about last night & I'm 100% pleased we're out of it, especially as we don't have the depth to seriously win it. The knock on effect to progress is usually always to the detriment of league form which is far more important.

The only good thing to come out of it is to see if any of the second string can make a serious challenge to become regular first team choices, but that's about it.

 

I'm not apologetic to his actions. It was never a red card and I've said as much. But I think we cost ourselves at the end with naive decisions. As I've pointed out it was us needlessly throwing too many players forward for a corner that cost us the second goal. The referee didn't make that decision for us.

I think Mason got it wrong. And it certainly massively helped Spurs cause. But I don't think I'm wrong in pointing out where we went wrong in our game-management as well. If you want to put the entire blame down to the referee, thats up to you.

 

Yep I thought he was hobbling a bit as he came off. Can't see why else Gracia would want to change the defence like he did.

Was impressed last night, Wilmot looked very assured and Success looked a real handful up top. I know you can't drop Gray but player for player I think Success has more about him.

Shame we didn't see Pontus, was hoping to see what the hype was all about.

Tough game for Quina, he started quite brightly but I thought faded as the game went on. Shown more than enough to suggest he could come good with time.

Thought Chalobah was excellent. Another selection dilemma in midfield, you can't drop Capoue or Doucoure but how can we leave a player of Chalobahs quality on the bench?! I'd be very concerned if I was Tom Cleverly about getting back into this team.

Sema... early days but meh.

Liked the look of both Navarro and Masina. Tough call between Navarro and Femenia for RB if Janmaat is out as they were both very good.

Disappointed by the atmosphere, expected more from 4k 'orns especially after how good fulham was.

 

OK thought you meant their equaliser as there was some pushing going on.. and that is a definite result changer.

 

Thats fair enough then. Was a shame Kiko was taken off first as he would have been better at tracking Son than Mariappa but things just transpired as they did I guess.

 

I do understand what you're saying, but having a man sent off changes everything. The coach cannot get on and explain tactical changes. The players are still playing the way as with 11 men, mentally. Maybe they did over commit for the free kick, but it unravelled because of the sending off that shouldn't have happened. So, yes, I do blame the referee for our exit.

Without his intervention we would have won the match in normal time, with all things being equal.

 

I'd be very surprised if Chalobah was even ready to start against Arsenal regardless. He was absolutely shattered last night from around 65-70 onwards. Was putting a big shift in even in those last minutes when he was dead on his feet. Cannot see at all how he's built up the fitness to recover in a couple of days. Capoue and Doucoure will go again I'm sure.

Can't agree re. Atmosphere. Thought it was good for the main part considering it was Carabao Cup, in Milton Keynes and midweek. A good effort by all really.

 

I watched the second half via river (doesn’t sound like I missed much in the first half). Some individual assessments:

Masina was disappointing. He wasn’t tough enough in the tackle, didn’t track runs well, didn’t command aerially. I can see why Holebas kept his place.

Chalobah played well but looked dead on his feet before the end. Needs a couple of U23 games to improve fitness before he starts in the league. I believe his fitness is already on par with most but he covers so much ground in a game that he needs to be ultra-fit to do it for 90 minutes. His little backheel to set up Femenía was a highlight.

I think Quina’s inexperience showed at times. One time he tried to dribble out of his own box, lost the ball and gave Spurs a chance. Another time he had the ball in the middle of the pitch without support but with space to drive forward and he massively overhit a pass for Success instead of giving our defence a chance to push out and organise.
I think he’ll be brilliant one day but it will take time to learn decision making, as it does for all young players.

Wilmot was sensational. Made so many blocks and clearances (including one off the line). His reading of the game, awarenes of danger and positioning is already fantastic. I hope to see much more of him this season.

Success can be very proud of his performance. He was isolated for large spells but held the ball up well and battled with their centre backs all evening. Made a good run from out to in for the goal and showed good strength to hold off Aurier before smashing it in. If Gray wasn’t scoring consistently he’d be a shoo-in for the league team.

Overall I was pleased with what I saw. Definitely a penalty but never a red card (as mentioned, the ’double jeopardy’ thing. He did try to play the ball).
Our much-changed side held a near full-strength Spurs to a draw. Regardless of how the penalties went I hope that gives them all a great deal of confidence.

 

I'm not one of these fans who says you have to be at a game to understand it or have an opinion - far from it. But can I ask if you went last night? Only because, after our first goal, we played almost exclusively on the break. Sema had one guilt-edged chance which he air-shotted but we were on the back foot from the moment Success scored. We were coping in the main part but cleared a couple of the line and Son was a growing influence in the game. Being assured of the win with 11 men on the pitch can't be certain - Spurs were definitely threatening. That was the opinion of almost every Watford fan I spoke to after the game on the way back to the car-parks.

Maybe I'm being too even handed but I just don't see it all as the referee's fault.

 

Can I just correct something a lot of you seem to be saying and what I also heard countless times outside the ground last night.

We didn't lose, Spurs didn't win. It was a draw. Everyone seems to have forgotten that fact.

 

Well SkySports are saying Spurs won. Even the official website has the result as 6-4 to Spurs!!

https://www.watfordfc.com/matches/match-review/match-review-tottenham-hotspur-2-2-watford-4-2-pens

 

See Richarlison v Arsenal last year for exactly how that plays out!

 

Brilliant! When's the replay?

 

I'm not usually one to criticise other people's posts, but this is utter tosh.
Having been to both Reading and MK I'm delighted with what I saw both times. I would be happy to see any of the 'reserves' take a place in the first team as required. I think they have proved that we absolutely do have "the depth to seriously win it" and it's just unfortunate that they won't get the chance to progress further. We now actually have a terrific squad, with Deulofeu still to appear, and there's no reason we can't have a right go at the FA Cup too.

 

Got this gem from him after we scored the first via text:

Powerjugs: YEEEEEEEEEEEEEES

Boss: You join the architects full time tomorrow

So glad he's in meetings this morning. Still, we have the 3 points. Rather the League games than Cup games.

 

Yeah agree Chalobah looked shattered, I probably phrased it badly I meant more in the long run.

The ground did seem one of those where the acoustics were poor, I was sat near the front and could barely hear people in the next section along even if they were singing.

 

[QUOTE="defreezer, post: 2677396, member: 2688"

The ground did seem one of those where the acoustics were poor, I was sat near the front and could barely hear people in the next section along even if they were singing.[/QUOTE]


Don't some/most Prem & Championship grounds have microphones which subtly amplify home noise?

 

There will always be the odd example which people will always throw back as if to suggest there's an even balance. You could also talk about Helguson's goal against Chelsea or Blissett's goal at Arsenal in the FA Cup. These are two big decisions against big sides that went our way. But this is extremely rare. In general, the vast majority of contentious decisions go for the bigger sides. I think every lucid supporter believes this.

 

Have I missed national f***wit day or something?

 

Poch hyperventilating:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45569331

 

I was referring to the way the media reacted.

 

The media always seems to react in an extreme way when Watford are the beneficiaries of the occasional controversial decision.

I've had SkySports on in the back ground all day today, and there's been nothing about the penalty or red card being in anyway debateable or controversial. Had it been the other way around there would be a massive debate over that decision helping to send Spurs out of the cup.

Look at the furore over Capoue's tackle on Zaha. That was debated and focused on for weeks afterwards. Has anything been said about the Fosu-Mensah tackle on Deeney? Very little and it ended once the match analysis had been completed. It's certainly not rumbled on for weeks. The same focus happened with Deeney's red card last season. It was treated like one of the worst tackles the game has ever seen.

I think the way incidents are promoted by the media has a huge baring on the actions of an official. It shouldn't be the case, but these guys are only human, and it must be a consideration in the back of their mind. This is why bigger clubs get these decisions more than other clubs, because the focus is far greater. A referee's integrity would be brought into question if he gave a red card for that type of event against a Spurs player. He does it to a Watford player and no one cares, outside of Watford of course.