The biggest worry for me was at 2-2. Did the manager tell us to basically become defensive and start with the passing at the back again putting pressure on ourselves or was that just a conscious mind set from the players? I was expecting us to go right at them looking for a 3rd with the momentum we had as the home team with the crowd up for it. You just know if that was us at Sunderland for example we'd be coming under all sorts of pressure and hanging on like a thread. In the end until injury time felt like we were trying to hold on for a point then a 3-2 defeat!
Sorry who wished for this? At least we are scoring a few goals I suppose and we don’t have to deal with Liverpool fans from Banbury and man United fans from Slough. Would much rather lose to the likes of Stoke, Blackburn and Middlesbrough than listen to peers who support the big six but never go to any games gloat.
I agree, but there were several occasions when he started to make a run for a pass over the top but the player in possession of the ball didn’t see or anticipate it. It seemed it was not something that had crossed their minds to practice in training.
I can't remember a Watford side that defends worse than this one and we've had some stinkers down the years. The match itself was actually highly entertaining if you are not invested in the result. This could be the most entertaining relegation we ever have.
Agree. The defensive errors we have made aren't just a stupid error once in a while or a split second decision gone wrong. It's been unfathomable some of the goals conceded with the goalkeeper and defence showing no cohesion or communication and VI has to take the fall on that front. What's concerning is that it's regressed this past month alarmingly so. I'm not seeing same pattern of play VI was practising in pre-Season. Hoedt isn't playing the same aggressive high line game where he was playing raking diagonals to wingers or Porteous being decisive in when to engage or hold back. Sierralta is a good backup option for CDM but it's clear he's not able to play that role reliably enough to help build attacks. Bachmann's ability to save really high quality chances (Brum, Leeds) but let in sitters undoes the good he is able to do when he is on form and undermines his improved decision making on the ball and cross claiming. I think this is a mid-table team that's capable of a play-off push, but susceptible to being very inconsistent in too many positions. If Hoedt has a good game, Porteous is off it. Vice Versa. If Bachmann is having a strong game, the defence ahead is normally off it. If the midfield is off it (And has been for most of September) it exacerbates all of the previous. Louza has demonstrated he's not working hard enough to take a spot and must be dropped. The Rajovic experiment hopefully dies a death with the difference of application between Bayo and Rajovic because Bayo at least offers energy and a semblance of hold up play we have not had all month but we don't have anyone who's comfortable playing a lone striker so think a move to 4-4-2 would be the best medium term approach as no surprise Bayo dropped off when Rajovic went off. This is all potentially fixable but we need to see some changes fast to the XI. Asprilla replaces Louza. Bayo replaces Rajovic. Kayembe replaces Sierralta. We don't look comfortable / capable playing 3atb yet if we want to change it up so better to tweak the personnel first.
I noticed this at Coventry, but we simply do not have the personnel to play with wing backs. Ngakia yesterday was running around like a Sunday league player, he was literally jogging back when Boro were attacking because he'd blown all his steam running to the touchline when we had the ball. Lewis repeatedly gave the ball away when he was out of position and they simply piled into the space. It was so predictable and obvious but our players just lacked any awareness of what was about to unfold.
I see VI has taken the blame for this and it’s about time. Too long he’s been deflecting the blame for poor performances and results. He’s got the same problem that so many modern head coaches have, in that he wants to be a Hasenhuttl or Bielsa with a grand master plan and that’s the only way to do it. The problem is, we don’t have the squad for that. We don’t have fancy inverted wing backs. We don’t have a proper number 6 half back type. We don’t have good strikers. What we have are some speedy and tricky wingers in Martins, Chak, Asprilla and a useful playmaker in Louza. Yet he decides to play a 3-5-2 which accomodates exactly 0 wingers and forces us to play two poor strikers. Yes, our squad is pretty bad, but it gets much worse when we don’t play to our strengths. This squad screams 4-2-3-1 and a much more compact, direct and counter-attacking approach, but VI will never see that.
Why take Aspro off when he's the one player (apart from Hoeght) who can make a defence-splitting pass?
Clearly there is no perfect solution, but I'd go with Bayo over Rajovic now, Asprilla in for Louza who's been a passenger since the first two games of the season, and Andrews for Ngakia who just isn't up to it. Sierralta is probably still our best DM, Kayembe might work in place of Koné/TDB, but he doesn't have the positional sense to play deeper
Reassuring to hear VI got it wrong with the set up because that was as clear as day. Yesterday was a mess all round, I’m hopeful my ears will stop bleeding soon from the new announcer. Set up was all wrong TDB and Louza were like training ground dummies - they were miles off it yesterday. Asprilla is better playing wide and cutting in. Generally it’s as bad a midfield performance as I’ve seen at Watford. Lewis was crap, as was Rajovic. Three decent attacking passes in the game - one each from Hoedt, Porteous and Ngakia. Our midfield were a disaster class yesterday. Off the pitch - somehow the Rookery gets quieter each game. The only time they made noise yesterday was to boo off the team at half time and full time. Our support is as bad as what’s on the pitch at the moment.
0-2 down inside 11 minutes isn't going to be much other than an atmosphere killer to be fair. I sit next block over from the 1881 section and thought yesterday wasn't too bad, tone deaf Luton drivel aside. For 10 mins after HT it was quite positive. Think the biggest issue is outside the Rookery. We seem to have large chunks of our crowd who were happy sitting on their hands and keeping their mouths shut in the good times, so no hope now we're crap again.
There definitely was a few emptyheads who were bored with finishing 11th-17th in the premier league, and wanted a bit more excitement in their life. They must have forgotten that we had no god given right to be in the promotion hunt each year in Championship. Personally I find getting tonked by Chelsea 5-0 slightly more bearable than losing 0-3 to Yeovil, but maybe that's just me.
Well, Aspro is certainly an attacking player, and if others track back I'm happy for him to concentrate on creating chances.
We seem so near but also so far to having a decent team, that surely we must click soon and start climbing the table. Earlier this season we could not buy a goal, but now that we are scoring regularly we have begun leaking goals like a sieve , it' s a real conundrum
I agree with the principle but not completely. Get tonked 5-0 but we've made a proper effort to stay up that Season? Sure. 5-0 with the effort made last time with no investment and no intent to stay up? Just as bad as losing to Yeovil
Once again I'll post that we could all see we needed to sign a DM and another CB before the transfer window closed. This will continue to haunt us until at least January.
I’ll doubt they’ll do anything about it in January. The excuse will be it’s difficult because players are under contract, it’s an inflated market, we do our main business in the summer, clubs don’t want to let players go mid-season, blah, blah, blah. The real truth is, Gino has shut up shop and is not investing.
The annoying thing is that Boro were there for the taking with their terrible defence had we been set up properly to begin with. Why VI chose this game of all games to try something else was weird considering we'd actually been playing alright in most of our home games in the previous system. 352 is also usually a formation rolled out away at tougher opponents, or to match up with other sides using the same system - not to use at home in a game you'll be aiming to win against another side playing 433.
I presume he thought we needed to go more direct - trouble was only one striker bothered turning up and apart from brief glimpses by Asprilla and Martins we were lacking pace and toothless in attack. That is before we get onto the non existent midfield and defence.
We needed to but didn’t have the funds. We spent what £1m/£2m in the window?? Had we bought in another DM or CB they would probably have been even poorer than what we already have. Maybe there were a few CB and DMs amongst the celebrated list of players offered to VI that he refused ? Maybe another loan would have been possible and affordable, but the one defensive loan we made was one of our worst players on the pitch on Saturday.
Good thoughts. On reflection I think we not only have no transfer funds but we are at the limit on our wage bill. Only reason I can think of for leaving the squad so paper thin.
The whole topic of how fans could/should show their disapproval is an interesting one, isn’t it? I started going to matches in the early 80s and back then there was something very nice and refreshing about our image. While supporters of other clubs rioted, we were the community club complete with family stand and safe atmosphere, and that was good. Even now we are generally a decent club and a nice place to watch football (insert gag here about ‘as long as you’re not looking at the pitch). Generally we don’t disrupt minute silences or mock other club’s sadly deceased disabled supporters. And I like that, and I’m sure most of you do too. The interesting question is have we taken decency and acceptance too far the other way? Are the majority now too wedded in the good old fashioned ways to voice/show anger at what’s happening to our club? Or will more and more Jumbolinas and IBBs come forward and start staying away? Saturday’s attendance did seem fairly low, so are more people becoming apathetic? Is apathy the best way or are the stay aways only cutting off their noses to spite their faces? (In the sense of denying themselves something they used to enjoy). Is direct action the way forward or is the internet the best tool? Does expressing frustrations here on a daily basis help and will it ever get noticed by anybody that matters? We all approach this issue differently and I’d be interested to hear your thoughts...
I don't think our squad is particularly thin compared to the Prestons, Bristol Cs, Cardiffs of this league. On a regular champ budget I don't think you can afford to have a subs bench the same standard as the first XI. The issue I think is more that the first XI isn't great and is no longer playing at full throttle and great spirit, and VI seems to have deviated from his original plan. The first 20 mins on saturday was genuinely alarming how open we looked at the back, midfield was non existant, and our new #9 looked League 2 standard.
I look forward to hearing that Mr Duxbury has volunteered to return half of his salary for this season...
On the question of attendance, I think people naturally become “apathetic” by the club simply being in a lower division. Even when we’ve been doing well in the Championship the attack has been lower. The clips of the ‘Deeney goal’ match show the place wasn’t packed to the rafters like it was in the PL. So I don’t think many are staying away as a direct protest. Direct action is definitely the best way to protest rather than spouting on the internet, but it’s no good if only a handful do it. It needs lots of people participating to gain traction. However, our fan base, which is criticised by some, largely comes from a surburban or Home Counties background so is not naturally the protesting type. The fortunes of the football club are not the be all and end all to most.
My staying away is a direct protest against Pozzo. I used to go home away under Jackett in League 1 and the Roeder years before that. I can’t stand our owner and what he has turned our club into and I won’t go to a game until he and his henchmen Duxbury and Giaretta are gone. As you say even if I made the effort to protest I think I’d be in a massive minority in wanting to do so, and to be honest I don’t fancy being manhandled out of the ground under the orders of the disgraceful people who have infested our club. Therefore the only avenue open to me is not to give Pozzo any of my money. Obviously I miss it but I feel like I have to stay away.
I do think the expectation that the Pozzos have created is part of the problem too. In the Jackett and Roeder eras, we all accepted we were a lower champ/even league one side. Memories of the good times just 4 years ago heighten the sense of failure and under-performance to be where we are today, back as a lower champ side. Fans are generally just a bit miserable and underwhelmed rather than outright furious over the Bayat, poor decison making, CEO salary, and general lack of communication.
To be fair, the matches at VR this season have been entertaining......but mainly for the neutral. Saturday's game was highly entertaining and I can see that, even though both teams were diabolical in defence. Make no mistake, Boro were just as open as we were, which does make it for an entertaining encounter. So, there's no issue with that side of things....entertainment value has been good. Just as it's good when we lose 5-0 at home to Liverpool. All the away fans love it and we can marvel at the quality of Mo Salah when he moguls through our defence. But as supporters you want to see your team win. Losing crazy games 3-2 is not very satisfying. I thought the attendance was decent, over 18k. There's been a slight drop off, but it's marginal considering we're now into our second Championship season and are looking hapless. What surprised me was when we went 2-0 down with a couple of truly pathetic goals, I didn't hear one boo. Usually home fans quickly get on the backs of players when matches start so poorly, especially after a poor start to the season. We did get back into the game though, which probably helped and the place was rocking at 2-2. But when they scored their third in the exact same comical way, by walking through our team of statues, it killed the atmosphere (from home fans at least) but again I didn't hear any booing at full time. This is a change, as before, we'd be quite angry at such a match. But I feel APATHY is the key word here. I think people have given up now, and are in a state of numbness to it all. We are not a club who are rebuilding or even resetting. No amount of promoting this lie will convince the majority. Sure, there are some blogs and the majority on platforms such as this, will try to convince you otherwise, but the fans who attend games seem to get it. It's an effort to get enthused by it all, as we're all just going through the motions. There is a feeling of there's nothing to play for right now. But come the international break, I believe there could be a big change in supporters in how they view the club. Gino will almost certainly fire Ismael, and I think there could be fallout from that with Manga. Once all that has been processed, I think fans will finally wake up and say, this is the same old sh1t, nothing has changed. That could be the motivating factor in getting a reaction. We were certainly heading there last season, but the Q&A certainly diffused the situation. But you can only fool all of the people some of the time. Once the penny drops fully, that Gino is no longer investing/invested or even competent in running the club I think fans will get angry. We're slow to the boil, but fans will engage once they know it's a majority feeling.
I do agree with this. The Pozzo's by being so ahead of the curve and giving us such success made fans think these guys were geniuses. Certainly that was my view of Gino back in 2019. But that has long gone now. The past 4 years have proved, maybe he was lucky previously, or maybe they did have some good ideas but they been superseded? Right now, I do not think we're in a process of reset and rebuild. An owner with ambition would have done more in the summer with the balancing between investment and debt consolidation. To me it appears Gino has just shut up shop and wants out ASAP. Both Udinese and Watford are in dire straights in their respective leagues. If both Udinese and Watford get relegated, that will be a massive hit to the Pozzo's. This downward trend for both clubs cannot go on without severe financial consequences, and we as a club are right in the firing line.
