"because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know." Rumsfeld forgot about the unknown knowns - the useless pieces of information that we carry around with us that we aren't aware of until it comes up in the pub quiz.
Sod the players, does this mean the new stand and the big TVs are illegal and must be torn down as Gino should never have owned the club?
They did but wasn't it a 30 point deduction? I think we would survive but don't want to consider it,as it may tempt fate.
Nice to see the positive reaction on here, I hope you are all right. Personally, I am a bit worried, fraud is serious and the fact that the money may have been somewhere is not really the issue. I would have thought that, when compiling the papers together, Senior Directors would have noticed that the letter was from a bank that was not anything to do with the club. Still, I hope my concern is unwarranted.
Don't necessarily have to assume bad faith, just amazed it isn't part of their process to check. Would've thought it would be quite a key part to establish independently that we have enough funds to fulfil our fixtures for that season! But yes totally useless!
Daily Mail reckon no points penalty and Riva is taking legal action against the person responsible http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3870928/Watford-not-face-points-deduction-supplying-false-letter-Football-League-chairman-Riva-takes-legal-action.html
I agree, like I've said I'm a bit concerned at what we don't know. It seems a highly irrational thing to do, which doesn't mean it simply was. Your point about senior directors may mean that either more than one person was in on it, or insufficient accountability, everything at the time going through just one person.
In a shocking new development it turns out the new stand isn't actually there and we've been deceived by a clever thingamy hologram what's it. Riva and the Pozzos are furious. But of course it finally makes sense because no one knows anyone who goes in it.
Funny how most of Looton forum is about us, most excitement they've had since 88. Some seem to know the inside running of our club very well and what punishments we should get.
Based on the little that's been reported, my guess is that Riva tasked X to get a real letter and X forgot/procrastinated about it. X then realised at short notice that they had not obtained the required letter and, panicking, created a forged one to meet a deadline. Bearing in mind we know the Pozzos are pretty loaded, it's incredibly unlikely they wouldn't have been able to obtain an actual letter. That makes a forgetful/short cut taking junior employee far more likely to be the source of the problem. I seriously doubt anything will come from this. The club will probably produce documentation proving Gino really was good for the funds at the time they were required and point the finger of blame on X taking an unapproved shortcut. It raises the question of what the point of asking for the paperwork is if no one actually verifies it, though.
With the deal being between family members there wouldn't ever have been the need to query it ... ... unfortunately I have the nagging feeling that someone somewhere has given the order to 'just make one up' and that someone must be a higher in the food chain than we are currently speculating, maybe a whole lot higher! Deleted E-mails don't disappear forever.
What a non story. If this was another club could I possibly give a toss? No. Its almost like using a blue biro when the form specifies black ink. Or taking a short cut in school cross country and coming back with clean trainers.
Like many of you I am shocked by today's revelation. Shocked. Raffaele Riva actually exists. As for the fraud, well that is far less of a surprise.
At least if we get a points deduction those points haven't gone to another relegation contender. Something had to be done about us beating Man United
The Telegraph have published a follow up article this evening: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...ed-over-vast-number-of-foreign-loan-signings/ Clearly they're desperate to get traction on their stunning coup before it dies on its arse. Slightly bizarrely they mention at the start that HMRC queried the tax situation around the 2012/13 loanees and how we registered them for tax purposes. The club satisfied HMRC with whatever was needed in 2014 and that was the end of the 'dispute'. And erm, that's it for that nugget of gold. The implication is that it was somehow untoward even though the tax man found no issue in the end. In other news the FA are circling now apparently, which does put a points deduction back on the agenda technically, and the Telegraph have reported it to the City of London Police too. I'm sure they're thrilled and have nothing better do. The hyperbole is ridiculous though. It is "an offence thought to be unprecedented in English football" apparently. If they mean no one has been caught out before then yeah, I guess that's right. They're clearly trying to make out like they've uncovered the Nixon tapes during Watergate though. It's already a "saga" despite them only breaking the story 24 hours ago. It's borderline funny watching them try to make something of nothing - I guess that's the role of the modern day tabloid journalist. Unless the Telegraph are holding back and have more to come I just don't get this one.
The Telegraph piece includes: 'Information received by The Telegraph indicates that the third party responsible for obtaining the letter admits to doing so but had no intention of it being used in any formal filing'. So: * a third party i.e. not a club official but a financial intermediary presumably paid by results * admits to fraud * has us believe he didn't think the letter would be used for anything important (some financial intermediary eh?) * yet 2 years later it suddenly dawns on him what it's purpose was * and brings his fraud to the attention of the EFL/D. Telegraph I don't blame Rive for suing him ... I assume for fraud, loss of reputation, damages etc. I imagine the club's official response will be to admit to Rive being duped into submitting a forgery by someone he'd known for several years and to do so with contemporaneous evidence that the funds did in fact exist elsewhere. Fortunately Rive has said he hasn't used the guy for a while, so I'm guessing we'll get a six figure fine and issue a promise to be more careful going forward.
The big irony behind all this of course is that the rule in this instance exists to stop dodgy owners taking change of well-loved clubs and running them into the ground with no regard for the fans or traditions of it. The fact Gino and family are as far from that as it's probably possible to get in foreign owners makes the whole thing pretty sad really. Aside from the obvious on-field advancements they've spent money on the stadium, including unprofitable cosmetic improvements as much as new seats to sit on, and training ground. They've named stands after popular heroes of our past and paid off debts which at one point we never thought we'd see gone. And yet they're guilty of an offence "unprecedented in English football" because of one fake letter submitted as part of a paper-based/internal rather than real change of ownership. What a joke. What are the EFL doing about Duchatelet at Charlton? Or SISU at Coventry? Why aren't the Telegraph investigations team into both of them? I think we all know the answer.
So pointless was the need for it we may find that on discovery the Credit-Suisse one was out of date someone at the FL said something along the lines of "just give us something that looks the part for our records". Infact to me this is the most logical explanation ... but of course they might not admit it.
It might be worth pointing out that the DT do not have a team of investigators. The investigators have sold the story to the most attractive of buyers, in this case the DT. The investigators for the Sam Alladyce fiasco were freelancers. Thought it worth a mention given the comments made about the tabloid. On another note, what if the Pozzos did know about the letter... then what? I mean, why? What are they hiding?
Rive was quoted as saying he'd worked with the fraudster on other projects, but if an HMRC enquiry is the next best bit of gossip he can come up with, I agree with you about this dying on it's arse.
The Telegraph are certainly giving Mr X a very easy ride. They seem to be accepting the lack of intent on his part as a given and obviously haven't named him or enlightened us as to his background/exact role in the club setup. He's getting a fair bit of protection from them and this is hardly mind-blowing corruption he's revealed. They've not even been able to get him to lay out a clear conspiracy on record. They really must be hopeful he has some more goodies to give them.
I can't for the life of me figure out what happened here. The money was there. It wasn't when baz was trying to put a block on it which may have helped to explain. It was a relatively simple process between two family members transferring an asset. If this is true there will be egg on a lot of faces, not least the FL. the letter would have had a signatory with which I'm certain they could have performed a quick call-back procedure to verify the paperwork. It takes seconds and is a tried and tested way to confirm an instruction or advice that has been provided outside of formal legal documentation. We had no reason to mess about with this so if true it's an individual doing something baffling. We should have caught it, so should the league. I'm not sure where the telegraph are getting this stuff from at the mo but we won't be the last, or the worst. Fair play to them and if it exposes holes in the process it's a learning point for everybody involved. It needs tidying up and I'm confident we won't take a big enough hit to really affect us. Football and a lot of other sport needs a clean-up. Catching stuff like this, although trivial in the grand scheme, means that the people who are really stitching the system may think twice in future. Hopefully it will blow over but if we really cocked up on this it's our own fault. We whinge a lot on here about shoddy journalism, well it seems there are a few left who do the real job. I'm relying on the assumption that we won't be hit hard when I say this but you can't fault their work (assuming it's true).
