Which was what, from your perspective? Whatever it was, it will be very different from many of the myriad other viewpoints of those who voted Leave.
I've given careful thought to which way I'd vote but eventually have decided I'm voting 'no' in the referendum to decide whether @Lloyd should be freed from this groundhog day of a thread. It's important wrong'uns serve their time.
I think 10 years is WAY too long when the full damage being done is realised. Some of my family are livestock farmers in the Brecon Beacons. Most of them and their fellow farmers voted Leave persuaded by all the promises of fantastic future opportunities outside the EU....practically all of them are now shaking their heads in despair at the way they feel they have been 'sold down the river' by subsequent developments. The impact on what they can get for their lamb is catastrophic in the face of having to compete with increased imports allowed from NZ, whilst finding abbatoir space is increasingly difficult and expensive, to the extent saleable lambs, in particular, have had to be destroyed. But lets ensure Great Britain becomes self-sufficient, eh.
I quite like you Lloyd, you're a funny chap, but you are doing yourself absolutely no favours here - you are admitting that you are in the wrong and don't want to hear about it. Better to hold your counsel. It's like responding "yawn". And I'm sure that you, like me, think that such people are absolute tossers.
I haven't admitted I'm in the wrong at all. I am just very bored with Brexit. I only made the point that delivering Brexit was vital if we want to be considered a democratic country. I stand by that too. There is little point having the same argument that we've been having for 6 years with people whose views haven't changed. You think Brexit is a disaster. I get that. I am not going to contribute to this thread anymore - it just attracts attention from people who probably spend their days wandering around Watford ring road wearing a pi55 stained tracksuit and shouting at the traffic (not you GOBE, obviously)
It appears that honouring the referendum is all Brexiteers have. I’m not surprised you are bored of it if that’s all there is.
"We bought a shyte car that drinks fuel and is always breaking down, but we have to stick with it because, uh, we bought it (and people will think we are stupid if we admit it's shyte*" *In reality everyone is laughing at us driving our Dodge Veg-O-Matic.
People have an answer. You just pretend they don’t because you don’t like the implications of it. No wonder the left gets likened to a bunch of conservative old gammons, when they continually ask what the financial benefit for them is. Such a question could not be further from what the left claim is their ideological position. Yet they’ll still be asking it in ten years time.
Not for the first time, it is necessary to remind you that personal financial benefit was not and is not the primary concern of many who voted remain. But it is the future financial health of the country & the whole population. You don't agree with the concerns they have about such matters, which is fair enough. But please desist from maligning the concerns expressed by accusing everyone involved of pure selfishness.
I absolutely know that many people who voted Leave did not share your level of messianic commitment to 'independence at any cost'. Some in my circle of acquaintances I have spoken to are disappointed that they haven't yet seen the financial positives they were led to believe would automatically flow from leaving the EU. So it would seem financial selfishness is not the preserve of those who voted remain.
Clearly untrue. Those who voted remain wanted the conditions as existed prior to the referendum to continue; by definition, those who voted leave wanted those conditions to change. The problem was and is, there were and are many disparate views of what that change should entail. I know you're not dense, so I can only assume you were being deliberately obtuse.
Massive queues developing at Dover for holiday makers taking the ferry. The French being blamed for a lack of staff, but it wasn’t a problem in the past. https://news.sky.com/story/holidaym...-of-dover-critical-incident-declared-12656708
Bit of context here - the image refers to this: European interest rates rise may push up UK’s divorce bill by £5bn New Treasury estimate comes as European Central Bank increases interest rates for first time in 11 years
Yep. Before, unless you looked Dodge City, they'd just wave you through. Now passports have to be stamped. It doesn't take much of a delay per vehicle to translate into huge cumulative delays.
It's interesting that should appear just now. I'd say there could be a fair bit of mud flying in your tory leadership race yet. It could be very amusing I wonder what incompetence has there been at the treasury lately, only have to wait a few days to find out I suppose
Rubbish, all sorts of arguments were made about how concerns about federalisation, EU armies, etc. were unfounded or irrelevant, and the EU's behaviour over COVID and the vaccines directly contradicted remainder's claims of EU fraternity and High morals, that we were rejecting. The EU of the last six years is not the EU leavers were promised if they voted remain instead. But like I say, either side of that argument is a rather pathetic one to make. Why did we leave the EU? Because we wanted independence.
Ridiculous. Nothing messianic about it, unless you consider the remainer 'EU Saviour we cannot live without' argument. It was a binary choice. Remain or Leave. We voted to leave.
I am referring to the arguments put forward on this forum, and if you are going to tell me that leavers have not been pounded with capitalistic demands to justify Brexit by stating the tangible benefits, then I will ignore you on this matter. Get in a conversation with GoBE and see how long it takes for that subject to come up. If you don't want the remain argument to be characterised by selfish capitalistic concerns, then take the people who use such arguments to task. I don't believe you have done so to date, and so I will assume you agree with them. Try listing the five main concerns that remainers have for leaving, and see if they aren't along the lines of tangible benefits and middle class freedom of movement (for the working classes, freedom of movement is, as the EU have stated, a form of exploitation to mitigate the effects of the EURO). I am yet to hear any ideological arguments from remainers that are not akin to 'Might is Right".
Remainers were fully aware of what the EU was like; a lot of your argument is based on events subsequent to the referendum, none of which will have come as a shock to those who voted remain, as it was not in contrast to how the EU had acted for many years. And all the 'project fears' concerning such issues as 'EU army' you continue to refer to are in no way central to the EU's thinking, however you may decide to interpret it. Whilst any such issue (and even more so 'increased federalisation') would be subject to veto and/or opt-out. You have made it very clear YOU voted leave 'for independence' and you had every right to do so. I'm not sure you should be deciding that was everyone's main priority.
I have never stated my personal financial benefit as being a reason for me being concerned about the effects of Brexit, and have previously clearly stated that I doubt it will have much direct impact upon my circumstances, unless there is a total economic meltdown which means everything will be screwed. So, having stated I DO NOT hold my views due to 'purely selfish capitalistic concerns', you decide anyway that 'I agree with them.' Another example of your dishonest, disreputable approach to 'debate' whereby you decide to disbelieve what people state and then compound that by incessantly declaring your incorrect belief as 'a fact'. Why do you require an IDEOLOGICAL argument against Brexit? There are sufficient altruistic practical arguments without resorting to messianic faux-ideology. You want 5 concerns I have about the damage I believe Brexit will cause, then here goes: increasing difficulty in trading with our largest & closest market-- this is NOT a purely 'selfish capitalist' concern; it is a concern that the impact will be massively negative for the very working classes you purport to represent. disinvestment in the UK economy at all levels-- again, this cannot be simply shrugged off as a 'selfish capitalist concern' as such disinvestment will negatively impact those self-same working classes much more than it will the 'middle class capitalists' you rail against. As an example, the company I recently retired from have decided to switch major investment planned for their UK factory (north-west based) to other factories in Sweden and Italy. Why? Continuing 'impossibility' (not 'difficulty') in the import and export process that is now making it too expensive to ship raw material in and finished goods out to that factory's customer base in the EU. People have had to be 'let go' already. concerns over the GFA and continued peace and stability in NI reductions in standards in products and welfare issues surrounding food products-- I refer you to the recent JRM ******** on such issues and, yes, reduction in freedom of movement. Forgetting for the moment your decision that the ONLY reason the EU espouses this is as a form of exploitation, it is clear that the annual 'holiday in the (EU) sun' so beloved of the 'working classes' is now both more expensive and massively more arduous to undertake. Whether you like that fact or not, Brexit has definitely reduced the ease and hence enjoyment of what was, for many, the highlight of their year. It seems to me that those who are willing to risk the well-being of the 'working classes' are not the lefty/selfish/middle-class/capitalist* (delete as appropriate) demons that populate your imagination, but those willing to sacrifice their future economic well-being upon the altar of some bizarre commitment to 'independence at all costs' from an oppressor that never was. If you want an ideological reason, how about the one about internationalism and tolerance being more important than isolationism and xenophobia?
TBF to the Irony Lady, the major fit the NFU (and its members) threw when this deal was announced wasn't widely reported possibly because of the howls of derision aimed at the wildly Brexit supportive NFU (and its members). EDIT: I see from the Indy that the Irony Lady's team have distanced themselves from that looney Minford...
