The B Word

Discussion in 'Politics 2.0' started by sydney_horn, Sep 29, 2021.

  1. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    So there are nuances in the way people cope with what they voted for, but no nuance in the reasons why they decided to vote the way they did, no matter how binary the question. Right you are.
     
  2. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

  3. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Yes. Are the EU entitled to interfere in UK internal democracy?
     
  4. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    I am glad you finally seem to understand the nature of the binary question.

    People may feel buyer regret. Doesn't change the reason they voted. Leave or remain.
     
  5. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    You are clearly being deliberately obtuse whilst accusing other people of misunderstanding the word 'nuance' and sticking to your plainly erroneous viewpoint that everyone who voted 'leave' did so from the same messianic belief in a specific interpretation of 'independence'. They did not, as various conversations I have alluded to show.
     
  6. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    One of the (many) problems with the 2016 referendum is that it was treated like an election.

    When you vote in a GE you have the party manifestos to tell you what each party intends to do if elected. It's not on the ballot paper because all that information couldn't fit. You pick the candidate/party that has policies defined in their manifesto that matches your beliefs.

    The referendum had a blunt leave/remain question. Remain was clear but Leave was never fully defined. There was no "manifesto".

    So yes, people made their own assumption as to what it would mean. Some listened to the likes of Hannan and Farage and believed a Norway style arrangement would happened. Others believed the Steve Baker loons who said we would leave the SM/CM. Others just wanted to end FoM and so on.

    The fact that the Tories are still arguing about what to do to open up the mythical "Brexit opportunities" and getting Brexit (re)done underlines how ill defined referendum was.

    But individuals still argue that the Brexit they have in their mind is the only true Brexit and everyone that voted Leave had that exact same vision.
     
    Ilkley, Bwood_Horn, Arakel and 4 others like this.
  7. EnjoytheGame

    EnjoytheGame Reservist

    Exactly this, Sydney... Those who yell that it was about 'independence' (as if the rest of us have missed something) are completely missing the fundamental point that Brexit meant loads of things to loads of people. It's why there's so much disagreement and disappointment among the people who still support the notion. It was nothing but a great big game of pin the policy on the donkey, a catch-all for all the major and minor bugbears and hobby horses. It was going to solve x, y and z, despite none of that being defined anywhere by anyone. There was a mandate and no manifesto. All that's clear is that instead of the UK wearing the big trousers at the grown-ups table, making and influencing big decisions, it is now completely free and independent to make tiny decisions that don't really matter. And at some point, a UK government will have to start making decisions to mitigate against the least well off in society carrying the full can for the entire mess.
     
    Ilkley, Calabrone and sydney_horn like this.
  8. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Quite.

    There should have been a second question asking what kind of "Leave" that user would be prefer if it won, whether as a rider on the original referendum or via a second ballot after Leave won.

    It seems almost certain to me that a Norway style deal would have been the outcome of that. Instead we get the current nonsense, which only a few fringe loons wanted.
     
    Ilkley, Calabrone and sydney_horn like this.
  9. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    The most very vociferous 'few' (Mordaunt, Davis, Braverman, Mogg and Baker amongst them) wanted a 'year zero' - the same ERG loons were proposing the no-deal Brexit (as was de Pfeffel).
     
  10. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

  11. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

  12. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Of course he would, because it’s evasive bullshyte. There are no benefits and no one can name one.

    The nearest is that some wages have gone up. We should be clear that most have not gone up greatly and even those that have gone up by more have seen that wiped out by inflation.

    Creating an unnecessary shortage of labour is a poor strategy for high wages and has negative effects elsewhere, for example to people needing health and care services. Striking is a **** ton better.
     
  13. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    Could you conjugate the auxiliary verb "to of" for me please.
     
    Ghost of Barry Endean likes this.
  14. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    Gotcha!
     
  15. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    "Ofbridge" University education...
     
  16. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    No I am not. And I find it incredible, but not too surprising, that you have found a new argument that is even more emblematic of your failure to understand the word ‘nuance’ than your claim the EU specifically prohibiting themselves from interference in UK democracy does not do what they say it says.

    Your propensity to point at something that is a singular fact, not in my opinion, but in the evidence of its very existence, and state that its reality is subject to your opinion, is magnificent. I admire your ability to do such a thing with an apparent straight face.

    Did these people you ‘spoke’ to vote leave or remain? And what nuance did they imply by doing so? More importantly, did they feel they were in a Brexit hostage situation? Which, when considering yourself or GoBE in a discussion on that subject, is how I imagine most people would feel.

    I have conversed with people less detached from reality, but usually they celebrated their intellectual anarchy as a raison d’ etra.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2022
    iamofwfc likes this.
  17. ovo
    ovas
    ovat
    ovamus
    ovatis
    ovant
     
  18. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    PENDANTI ITE DOMUM
     
  19. "Paedophiles, they go house?"
     
    Lloyd and sydney_horn like this.
  20. sydney_horn likes this.
  21. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

  22. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    Possibly , but Manuel , who owns a small bar down a backstreet in , say , Benalmedina, gives not one shiny shyte about politics\brexit\etc . Cos Manuel just needs trade .
    In other news circa pre 2016 French farmers/truckers)air traffic controllers have caused mayhem causing tailbacks at Calais/Dover.
    Anyone who pushes back on this is a liar
     
    iamofwfc likes this.
  23. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    Question 2 : For morons
    If we pay less then how do our EU friends benefit?
    Not expecting an answer because either our Marxist friend has blocked me or he cannot answer how we all win without looking like a *******
     
    iamofwfc likes this.
  24. EnjoytheGame

    EnjoytheGame Reservist

    Two valid - but totally unrelated - points.

    Looking past the stereotyping, if it’s a fallacy to say that all that matters to British people is trade (as some on here argue) then it’s a fallacy to say that it’s all that matters to Spaniards. It’s also an astoundingly simplistic way at looking at a complex issue, hence why the “They want our money” argument doesn’t really work when what we’re talking about is how Governments work together. It’s also, possibly, a little disrespectful to suggest ordinary Spaniards care only about money and are not engaged with the politics of their country.

    On the second point, it’s true that striking workers have caused travel chaos. Now Brexit causes it too. Well done everyone!

    However much Brexit is costing Spain - or indeed any other country - it’s costing the UK much more. Those figures are not in dispute. And the much heralded non-EU trade deals are worth 178 times less than the cost of Brexit.

    Hoping that Spanish bar owners are going to mitigate the effects of a disastrous policy is no more likely than hoping the German car makers would do so.
     
    sydney_horn and Since63 like this.
  25. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    It was always proposed that Brexit would have negative impacts on the EU as well as the UK. The difference is the scale of the impact.
     
  26. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I also think it’s likely that the EU still has more opportunities from Brexit than the UK. We have no realistic supply chains that replace the EU, so it keeps our business but it has a pop at replacing our business and our unique positions in finance and culture.
     
  27. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    If you could supply the data on how many British people no longer visit Spain because of Brexit
    then I can respond to your post
    Until then it is all conjecture

    The floor is yours .....?
     
    iamofwfc likes this.
  28. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

  29. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Bloody commie capitalists at it again.

    Twitter based politburo Gammons raging that Brexit didn't make enough money for their tastes.

    I just hope that people remember that I was making the ideological arguments from the start, and that I have been pointing out the irony of you lot being closest tories for years now.

    Where's the chap who was recently saying that I was being unfair by characterising remainer arguments as "what's in it for me, where's the tangible benefits"

    Thank you to the poster, above, for making my point for me.
     
    iamofwfc likes this.
  30. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    The latest "led by donkeys" video reminds us what the "lead Brexiters" said before the vote about the "sunlit uplands" compared to what they are saying now.

    Narrated by the lovely Anna Ford too....

     
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  31. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    A visual guide to how Brexit has devalued our passport courtesy of the Telegraph. It was the most powerful, with visa free access to more countries than any other. Now it is down to joint thirteenth.

    20220803_070822.jpg
     
    Moose likes this.
  32. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    What a painfully desperate attempt to find a negative. Who, except middle class communist Gammons, gives a flying fig about this information?

    Who does it affect? Step forward affluent 'elitists'. Forgive the rest of us if we really can't manage even to give the most minimal of f's about this, but we do appreciate how important it is to you chaps. Meanwhile, global warming, food shortages, etc., as a reality rather than as entertaining talking points.
     
    iamofwfc likes this.
  33. I've got no idea why I posted this, particularly as I liked Sydney's original post.
     

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