The problem for the Pozzos is that they are playing on the big pitch with the big players and they have by far the fewest resources and are now competing against nation states and multi billionaires with regular rich guy money topped up by loans. Criticism of the recruitment is absolutely fair enough up to a point but where it gets ridiculous is to suggest they are moronic imbeciles who don't know how to tie their shoelaces. They've consistently showed us the model – a sprinkling of marquee players supplemented by what they hope will be affordable gambles. Some work out, others don't. Neglecting the defence for successive windows is absolutely baffling when the whole security of their model depends on survival in the Premier League. The number of goals conceded even when we stayed up comfortably should have been enough of a concern. They've made some mistakes, especially since 2019 when the whole club seemed to get carried away and thought they had cracked it. Duxbury's email the morning after the cup final was particularly daft. But they have also been punished disproportionately for those mistakes and have compounded them with further mistakes made under pressure of dwindling resources and a reduction in the margin for error. We're now stuck in the Canaries-Baggies-Cottagers elevator of doom, in danger of going down and hoping to come back up again for more of the same. There are so many issues in the squad that even a summer of recruitment like 2015 might not solve all the problems.
Just what I feel based on the relative success we've had under their ownership. Of course if a richer owner came along who was prepared to bankroll us, and absorb losses, then who knows where that could take us and of course we could be far more successful.
My issue is when they take their eye off the ball and can’t resist players like Louza at the expense of what the first team actually needs. I understand the logic behind the model and that if it all pans out we’re better off in the long run, but quite often I think Gino gets this drastically wrong. Ultimately the biggest cash cow is staying in the PL, but all too often he gambles with this because he can’t resist a player who might make us more money later on down the line, but won’t help us now.
Agreed, but we have so little info to go on – all we can do is assess the players they do sign. It doesn't necessarily follow that there was a choice between Louza and a defender. That's generally not how transfers work. However, we don't have much insight into what they are trying to do and why, or into the negotiations that have failed, the conversations that have been had. We see snippets and fill in the great voids in our knowledge with supposition and guesswork. I mean, it's very easy and extremely tempting to think that because they haven't signed any defenders they've simply ignored the defence and thought it was all fine. That's not necessarily the case either. What would be helpful is if the club was a bit more open about what it's trying to do but I accept that it's very unlikely for a chief executive to undermine his playing staff by saying: "Yeah, we tried to get some defenders in the summer because our current ones are absolutely hopeless but everyone we approached said no." With such hostile reactions everywhere, it's amazing clubs bother saying anything at all these days. What we can agree on is that it's glaringly obvious that the team has major issues defending coherently and has done so for a considerable time. It's also obvious that conceding 70+ goals a season (as we're on course to do) puts enormous pressure on the attackers and, most likely, will lead to relegation. Most damningly, it's also true that the buck stops with the owner and chief executive because they are literally the only people who can do anything to improve the situation.
Actually, the demise of the 'manager' is largely responsible for the disconnect. The move towards a head coach who deals only with first team matters probably has plenty going for it but it does create a gap between us as supporters and the club. Back in the day, a manager could at least hint that work was being done behind the scenes. Even as recently as Harry Redknapp leaning out of his car window saying: "We're trying to get a few things done but, y'know, it's divvicult at this time of year.' It communicates something to the fans (activity, or desire) without actually saying anything. In the old days, managers could, and would, tread that delicate line for any manner of reasons (to put pressure on the board, or take it off themselves, or to placate supporters). Now, we hear next to nothing. Ranieri can hardly come out and say: "I've asked for three defenders and a goalkeeper and this is who I want," largely because he's not in charge of recruitment or the playing budget or any of the medium or long-term business strategy. That's all down to the owner and chief exec, who are insulated from any interaction with the media and so can say nothing.
I get what you're saying, that there are always things that happen behind the scenes that we can't be privy to, extenuating circumstances, and the club don't operate in a vacuum - you're right that this has to be taken into account to some degree. But at this point, we got relegated with a dreadful defence that everybody could see needed reinforcing and overhauling two seasons ago. Now, we actually find ourselves in a worse situation, two years on. There is no excuse big enough at this point to suggest anything other than that, in functional terms, they have ignored the defence, and aren't capable of properly assessing it. This is a long term pattern, evidenced time and time again - we are well, well past attributing each and every failure to 'we couldn't sign a single better centre back than the ones we have, again'. And, frankly, what would that say about the club/hierarchy in itself?
Why can’t the Club say it how it is? If they’re scared to upset the ***** players that we have, then there’s no hope at all. The players will continue to play ***** because there’s no fear of competition. Sick and tired of seeing these woeful players taking advantage and acting like we owe them something! Watford is their employer, and if they’re not happy with that, then they can mutually terminate their contracts and fark off elsewhere. They won’t do that though because other than a select few actual decent players, the majority of them are on salaries worth far more than they are as players, and realistically, they probably won’t get a better contract anywhere else.
We are in a worse situation due to the hierarchy's inability to identify young affordable prospects, who develop into first reamers, that are then sold for a healthy profit. Basically, the Pozzo model no longer works and hasn't for a few years.
Apart from Dennis and Pedro fair comment We have no youth players coming through and will Baah /Pollock get a chance? The latter is in a side that let in a lot of goals although that might not mean he isn’t performing. Hungbo had a chance last season but obviously wasn’t deemed ready for the Premier league even as cover .
Obviously Dennis has been an incredible signing, but he was also 23 when he arrived, a first teamer for several other teams in major European leagues, had scored two goals against Real Madrid and 12 months earlier been linked to Premier League teams bigger than us. Not to mention the fact that he essentially went straight into the first team as a starter. So, I'm not really sure he counts as a young affordable prospect developed by the Pozzo. We just managed to get him for a good price thanks to the flipside of our Mogi soul-sale.
Louza's agent is Mogi Bayat. We don't need to know the finer details of 'why' that deal was made - its pretty obvious. As for the bit I've highlighted - Duxbury and Giraldi did this exact thing at the fans forum that was held in February at the pub in the cup final season. Questions were put to him about central defensive recruitment at that point as fans clearly felt it was an issue then. They went as far as saying they were looking for CB's in that window which has just closed - but decided against it. They have followed that up with Dawson who flopped and was cheap, and two freebies from Udinese. Unless we are in the recruitment meetings personally, of course its technically all supposition and guesswork from us....but there comes a point where the balance of probability for what is being said in those meetings becomes stark and what we are 'guessing' and 'supposing' around defensive recruitment in nigh on certain.
I agree that it an extent we’re just guessing, but my assessment is that that they simply don’t value defenders as highly as they should and they are stubborn with that particular outlook to the point it is actively harming the club. Maybe that’s down to decades of top flight survival with Udinese, maybe it’s an outlook and a strategy that has worked 100% of the time, year after year in Italy and they’re convinced it’s right for Watford too. But the PL is of a much higher overall quality and far more punishing across a broader spectrum of teams. Yes, they kept us up for five seasons in the PL, but they certainly got caught out a lot sooner than they ever have at Udinese, and they’re going to get caught out again this season. Their disdain for defenders simply doesn’t translate as workable in the PL, yet they’re seemingly too stubborn to acknowledge the consequences of maintaining this outlook. Breaking it down, after being relegated they deemed relying on Sierralta making the step up, and freebie Rose overcoming an attitude of not being able to wait to get out of football, fitness issues and possible mental health issues to improve our defence beyond the one that relegated us. We could all see WTE was likely to be a liability in the PL, and low and behold in one of our first few games he makes one of the hair brained passes we knew would be a problem and he hasn’t stopped since. If we we can all see and predict that, why can’t Gino? Then you’ve got Kiko, Masina and Cathcart. Not good enough last time around, two years later they’re all just older and even worse. What was the thinking there? And if all of the above doesn’t confirm their absolute misplaced disdain for the defence, any of the assumptions about players being good enough who aren’t, or Rose turning his career around, WTE becoming a different player, Sierralta rising to a challenge we have no idea if he can meet, and Kiko, Masina and Cathcart somehow rolling back the years and actually all becoming adequate PL players when two years ago they were not… every single one of those assumptions was also based on the assumption we would also get next to no injuries, and if we somehow didn’t, that we also wouldn’t be losing players to the Afcon either. How on earth can thinking like that be justified and rationalised? It’s just a combination of stubbornness and blind hope.
We might get well get worse. For me the financial management and as importantly the culture of the club are worse than any time I can remember. The financial management is relative of course. We have been in worse absolute situations but the relative waste of 5/6 years of premier league existence has been spellbinding. Waste, debt and strange dealings like Pussetto, Zuniga and Gueye. The culture is so poor it results in us having the worst team spirit of any club, both among fans and players. I feel nothing but distrust of our owners. Others feel the same and you are right I might be a minority. From my side, I agree we might get worse post Pozzo but given the above I’m happy to take the risk.
One amusing scenario to contemplate. Given Pozzo’s stubborn antics when it comes to transfer dealings can you imagine the disparity in club valuation if a buyer did come along? It would be Mike Ashley x 100!!
Yes I'd love to know what their objectives are. I'm sure they wouldn't sell cheaply, however we are/were worth so much more as a prem club than a champ club. Which means the window to sell at max value has/had a short window. I've said many times if I was them I would have sold after 2-3 years of prem survival (and used 15% of the fee to buy a club like Charlton where they could repeat what they did at Watford) as I believed the upside on valuation was very limited compared to the downside. If we are relegated and fail to get back up with the parachute help, we will be worth pretty much what they paid for us.
The problem is we spent 5 seasons transfer budget on Sarr who is fast but less skillful than Jobi McAnuff
This transfer has always baffled me. I don't understand what the logic of spending so much money was. Did they really believe that Sarr's value would rise so drastically and he would become a world class player?
They must have genuinely believed we would get more than £50 million for him when we do sell. Otherwise it's barely a profit considering wages etc
@a19tgg I'm not sure anyone is trying to justify it and we don't know the thinking because they don't explain the thought process either at the time or in retrospect. My best guess is that they reckoned Sierralta and WTE plus a combination of the others would be just about good enough, perhaps until further reinforcements could be brought in, and that the attacking threat posed at the other end of the pitch would reduce the pressure on the defence. To date that appears to be, at best, a serious miscalculation. 35 goals conceded in 17 games is relegation numbers. The result of all this is that a lot of supporters have become angry about the failure to address an obvious issue and others have become apathetic. What is less clear is what supporters can actually do about it? As ever, the only options appear to be to support the players the club can put on the pitch, hope that some better players are signed in January and if not, vote with your feet, or protest.
I think did what (they thought) the fans wanted and dropped £££££ on an established player who could improve the first team. Of course in hope that he’d go on to double in value but hardly in expectation.
We could surprise everyone and do it before the window opens, I’m sure there’s a loop hole Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And given every single social media post they put out at the time had spotty virgins replying with #AnnounceSarr, I almost can see why. After all, those are the ‘fans’ the club seems most intent on pleasing.
Depends on the balance sheet they leave us with. If we have debts and assets which don't cover them, we won't be worth even that.
Yes I actually typed “subject to the relative net assets” but thought it was a bit OTT so deleted it from the post !
Because they don’t have to with our supporter base. The majority are there for a day out or desperate for acceptance on social media so that’s a decent chunk that won’t say a bad word about them. Look at social media today, the morons are arguing about whether we should sign Dean Henderson on loan for 5 months. This is the level of intelligence we are dealing with.
Yes major decisions are made in the boardroom based on how a Watford vlog or a teenager's podcast will react to it. Yes siree
If you come out and batter somebody in public it could be described as bullying. I’m not in HR but it’s the way things work these days
I am familiar with the accounts for 2020 as with previous years. Included within them are the total sums paid/accrued in interest through to the family owned entities in Luxembourg over the Pozzo era. I believe I am also familiar with the 23Capital operating model and how they themselves raised finance for their new loan arrangements with their customers. The 2021 accounts should indeed tell us about the loan book management changes of the past 18months. However, I suspect the ultimate recipient of the interest payments will not be as transparent in the accounts as we may hope for.
