Paris Shootings

Well here's what I think is a decent comparison with regards to something like this. In 2009, as the Sri Lankan cricket team were travelling by their coach from their hotel in Lahore to the cricket stadium to play Pakistan for an test match, their coach was attacked (bombed and shot at) by Laskhar-e-Jangvi, a terrorist group. None of the cricketers (or umpires) were killed but 6 police officers and two civlians lost their lives, whilst some of the cricketers and umpires were injured. Once they got to the stadium, they were immediately airlifted out of the vicinity by military helis and the test match (as well as the rest of the series was abandoned). Even though the next Cricket World Cup was in two years time, Pakistan were revoked of their rights to host the tournament with their host matches going to the other countries in their bid (i.e India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh).

Chances are they could very well take the Euros away from France, but my question would then be who would they give them to...

 

Absolutely horrific what happened in Paris.

How many of these 'fanatics' are getting into Europe using the 'refugee/asylum' route. Close the borders - proper security checks like there used to be - sad it has to be like that but needs must.

Dare say someone will speak up claiming 'what about their human rights, etc, etc', but what about the rights of those murdered?

 

I'm sure the families and friends of those murdered last night would say it is!

I have every sympathy with those fleeing but there comes a point when enough is enough.

I'm not saying my opinion is necessarily the right way to go but it's my opinion.

 

Religion isn't a cause though. It's a tool of the powerful. The issues are always socio economic.

Powerful elites in Saudi and Iran spend billions of petro dollars promoting their extreme brands of Islam as social control. It becomes an ideology to support fanaticism as a response to problems like the power struggle between different groups in the middle east. When we try to manage or exploit those divides we cop it too. But day to day Muslims, Jewish People, Christians get on fine where there is democracy and peace.

It's like the role of missionaries in the empire. The purpose of the empire was to expand and dominate - the requirement to 'civilise' with religion a fig leaf for dominance and exploitation. Christianity didn't make the missionaries cruel, because other Christians elsewhere were not.

And this is true whatever anyone believes they are doing individually.

 

Syrian passport found on the body of one of the attackers

Bye bye EU

 

Agreed.

But what has that to do with proper border checks?

 

The passport seems a bit convenient to me, like the bomber intentionally took it with him exactly for the reason above. When you're going to your death why would picking up your passport even come into your mind?

 

Because they don't want anonymity.

 

Don't disagree with what you are saying, but what do you suggest? Let every Tom, **** and Harry have the freedom of Europe?)!

 

However it risked being caught, identified and their co-conspirators being identified before carrying out their parts...

 

Does it make any difference?

A passport is just a passport, not a political statement.

 

Evil is what links them.

 

Greece confirms that at least one of the bombers/gunman came across to a Greek island from Turkey masquerading as a refugee.

Some of us said that this would happen (on this forum) just a short time ago, and we were laughed at or criticised for even suggesting it. They are "all Syrian refugees" we were told. Well now we know, only around 40% are from Syria, and they include cold bloodied killers from ISIS.

"Open the borders, let them all in, stop the checks, don't be so heartless - they are fleeing from certain death, or just want a better life!"

How many more terrorists have been waved through into Europe to commit similar tragedies in the near future.

Some of you are just so naive.

 

Now it has been proven that at least one terrorist, which probably means there are others, got into Europe posing as a refugee, this must surely bring back strict boarder controls across the continent!

This will probably bring more hardship to the genuine refugees, but so be it! I know this might not be 100% humanitarian, but I think the EU should now fund and set up staging camps at the main gateways into Europe; with the effected countries receiving full funding and possibly even payment from the EU. Every other EU country could send experienced immigration officials to staff these camps and handle all the asylum seekers professionally. I am sure suitable sites could be found at all the gateways into the EU; and of course this would be fully funded by the EU. In fact something like this could possibly even help the likes of Greece, as it would bring inward investment and jobs.

Perhaps we could even turn the current situation back on Isis, by offering fast tracking to refugees who can give credible intelligence against Isis?

 

The triumphalist headlines in the tabloids after that IS bloke was killed looked a bit silly today.

 

Apart from East/West no European border has ever been secure, not even our own. And anyway does it really make a difference whether these terrorists commit their atrocities in Paris or in Athens or Rome? Are French lives worth more than Greek and Italian ones?

 

Of course here is no simple answer. But we will certainly not solve it by naively believing that they are all fleeing for their safety. We have to use our common sense.

True refugees will have stopped in the camps in the first country of safety. Those that go further are seeking more than safety, which is fair enough, but they are not real refugees.

The UK government has the right idea. Start with the camps, fund them properly, and the likes of Germany should announce they are closing the door in say 1 or 2 weeks to try and stop the flow continuing. The EU borders should then be shut.

Germany can still take as many as they want, but from the camps.

But what damage has been done already?

 

You're the naive one to think that just because someone claims a bomber came across Greece to Turkey masquerading as a refugee. Don't you think that would be nigh on impossible to discover & prove beyond doubt less than 24 hrs after the attacks?

 

How can you blame the Refugee's when it hasn't even been confirmed yet? Lets not jump to conclusions to push a political agenda.

EDIT- I think this is a very good piece https://samkriss.wordpress.com/2015/11/14/how-to-politicise-a-tragedy/

 

I'm not blaming the refugees, and there is no political agenda from me here.

It isn't "political" to suggest that when there are 000's of people in Syria that have, more or less, declared war on the West we don't invite them over here through an open door. It is just being "not stupid".

 

Where was anyone suggesting accept people without process?

The alternative is to accept no one and that's pretty harsh as most Syrians are not ISIS supporters (it is a composite of many nationalities) and are fleeing them.

Forza is right - we should see, but even if it turns out they were not, accepted, it's a big consideration in how to manage the whole issue.

 

To suggest that the attacks prove that we should not have/be accepting refugees is to suggest that we have all been terror-free before this attack.

I seem to recall many horrendous attacks happening long before Syrian immigrants started wandering over here.

If a person wants to sneak into a country badly they can go under a truck or whatever like they always have. If border controls were effective then no illegal immigration would have occurred - especially since attacks are usually carried out by citizens anyway.

It seems disrespectful that this has been politicised by various governments so quickly. The final death toll hasn't even been calculated and the world has already reduced it to an ideological argument one way or another.

That isn't right to me.

 

They're saying three of them lived in Belgium.

 

The first one identified is... a 29yo French citizen who lived in a town 25km from Paris.

 

V

If you mean me, then your post is written on a false premise as I am not suggesting any of these things.

 

Would you care to tell me where I've suggested that the lives of a Frenchman is more or less valuable that that of an Italian or Greek?

 

I agree. There are times where you have to be selfish, and this is one of them IMO. In this case, we must think of those already in Europe, and what security measures we can implement or improve to ensure their protection.

I'm all for allowing a percentage of refugees legally into Europe, but clearly there need to be serious security measures in place and far better border to border control.

 

You have suggested people are being 'naive' but it's not clear, if you don't wish to remove asylum, what you would do.

And I don't mean this just to win an argument. This is a very testing humanitarian problem.

 

It's still not clear whether all of the perpetrators came from within france or not

Either way, the West need to change the mind set of suicide bombers. Demolishing their family homes is meant to be a deterrent in other regions