Gay cake row.

Bit like saying to a bunch of brown people that you're not racist and you're all for equal rights, but that you cannot for the life of you stand negroid features.

 

H

And another thing. The words opinions, beliefs and feelings are not freely interchangeable. Anybody who works in any sort of psychological field will tell you that. Generally speaking the first two are quite easy and the third rather more difficult and tricky especially for blokes.

So my question remains. I couldn't have been clearer about my beliefs, opinions and feelings. So, despite being a fairly vociferous defender of minority rights and willing to put my personal safety on the line too, am I nevertheless a homophobe according to your definition whatever that might be? If so, I'm quite heppy to be 'guilty as charged' and won't be doing anything to correct any perceived inadequacies any time soon. You ask too much. And I'd hazard a guess I'd be backed up by a large heterosexual majority out there irrespective of what you might think. However, hey, there's still time to pull back from the brink.

 

You don't have to say it is the point. You can fancy who you like though. Personally Latin women have always done it for me. So does that make me racist now too?

 

Kelso, I perfectly accept that in deed you have been honourable, but there are two issues with your original post, from memory (I'm not trawling back to find it) which I think offend people.

1. That you are so rude about something. To say certain people make your "skin crawl" would be offensive to pretty much anyone. Sure, it may be an honest appraisal of your feelings/thoughts/reactions, but some might argue that the issue is with YOU and not with people who are gay.
2. The idea that there is some sort of homogenous gay community - that is representative only of the outrageous, flaming homosexuals who live to shock straight folk and turn everything you say into a pun about blow jobs. Sure some gay people are over the top, some gay people I know wouldn't show up as gay on any regulation gaydar, but they are in long term, happy gay relationships.

There was something you said about militancy - well I'd argue that gay people are right to be in our faces about the right for them to live their lives, share their love and so forth without prejudice or discrimination and I'm sure you'd agree, so why should they be coy about asking for it whenever that right is denied them?

I'd just like to clarify - I think you are perfectly entitled to your view, or your feelings, but that other people are perfectly entitled to judge you based on that.

 

But I think you've come to the nub of it, we are actually all the same, have the same hopes, aspirations and dreams in life, regardless of our sexuality or race or whatever ,and we don't 'feel' any different to anyone else, and should not expect to be treated any differently from anyone else and with equal respect, that isn't asking too much surely.

 

Absolutely! That's not asking too much at all. Couldn't agree more. Spot on. Good to see the Dormouse back in action!

 

really good points in your post wfcMoog

 

Sorry was getting ready to go out this evo, and tried to get an extra hour's sleep or so after all our titanic fight on here overnight, but failed miserably, probably going to be an all-niter tonight and had just an hours sleep, so you've hit the nail on the head and prob will be like a dormouse, but curled up in bed all weekend!

 

Very fair post. Yes, I've admitted that the expression I used may have been o.t t. and designed to shock when it was originally delivered.

I've never said that the gay community is homogenous. I simply said, in that particular circumstance, I didn't like it so I don't know where this bracketing everyone together thing is coming from. To be clear, I've been in less ostentatious majority male gay company on plenty of occasions and not had any problem at all.

Well judge away. What you'll always get from me on here is honesty. And my 'visceral reaction' comes straight from the gut. That's what the word means. It wasn't socialised or nurtured into me. I was born with it which makes it as fundamental to me as a gay person being gay.

Finally yes, I get why the gay community, being in a minority who have been subjected to plenty of persecution, and still are, have to be particularly vociferous in fighting their corner.

 

Blimey, what an unapologetic socialite! Did we have a 'titanic fight' b.t.w.? More a clearing of the air by being honest I thought. Which was a point I made earlier. Imho, that's the only way to move forward. Pretending gets no-one anywhere and inertia sets in. So if I hadn't posted my 'controversial post' we wouldn't have had a quite excellent discussion on this thread today and would still have all been hanging around waiting on the Joka signing on the dotted line.

Get on with it Joka ffs!

 

There's nothing wrong with not liking those in-your-face, ultra-camp types.

Years ago, I was in Brighton with an ex-girlfriend, and she wanted to go into this pub full of absolute mincers, prancing about in tight tee-shirts and bloody hot-pants, shouting "Yooo hooo" and all that.

I point blank refused to go in there.

So, we found a 'normal' pub, but she whinged all night about what a good laugh we'd have had in the other pub, and was calling me a homophobe. I argued back that I had nothing against anyone for who they're attracted to, but I just didn't want to be amongst that lot. This perfectly 'normal' bloke came over to us and said to her: "Stop giving your boyfriend a hard time. I agree with him. Me and my friends there, we're all gay, and we wouldn't go in there either. We can't stand those people, and don't want to be around them."

 

Kinda the same point I've been making really. Your girlfriend would have enjoyed it (she might have actually enjoyed your awkwardness too). You wouldn't have done. My wife was fine too (partly in her professional capacity). I wasn't, but tbf that was partly my fault. She didn't insist I attend. I guess I was just kinda interested then found out I didn't like it.

 

i've not once called you a homophobe. i've not once said you can't hold your own opinions and express them freely.

i've said quite consistently and clearly, (as everyone else has many many many times), that there is a clear and undeniable incongruity (and ridiculousness) of you saying
A) I have a strong opinion/belief/attitude to gay people which they find rude and insulting, but it's totes unfair that some people get angry at me for saying it
B) Gay people have a strong/opinion/belief/attitude to me which i find rude and insulting, and it's totes unfair that some people don't get angry at them for saying it

your response to this has been to switch between doubling-down (i know it's silly, but it's what i think, so stop making me feel bad. plus there are limits to publically acceptable behaviour but being a horse's ass isn't one of them e.t.c), trying to turn it into another debate (i'm not a homophobe!) or just changing your story (i said it as an honest response to a question, i said it as an intentionally and uncalled for fire-starter).

so before you finish constructing another straw man (the flamin' kind of dude you like) with the whole "You don't have to say it is the point. You can fancy who you like though. Personally Latin women have always done it for me. So does that make me racist now too?" let's just end with some advice. if you go to a table of latin woman don't say "hey, i think all latin american women are slags," because you're going to get upset when they don't recognise your otherwise sterling work for humanity in their response.

 

This was my experience too. No more bumming for me.

 

bum-curious?

[video=youtube;VmugfdhSzJs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmugfdhSzJs[/video]

 

You're girlfriend sounds alright, to be honest in the years I've been going out I've never been into a bar where someone has screeched out 'yooooohoooo' in hot pants as I've gone in, and if they did I'd actually think it was quite funny, I can't understand the pure venom/hatred...why the hatred? Fine if it doesn't float your boat, that's your choice and go somewhere that is, I usually just prefer a general pub myself, but there are also loads of straight places I wouldn't want to go into, there are loads of str8 bars I love, but why the hatred? 'prancing', 'absolute mincers' etc...99% of gay bars are 'not in your face' believe me and people are just there to have a good time, like straight bars.

 

I wish he would and for that matter Guedioura too, driving me nuts...

 

Never heard of a 'straight bar'.

No hatred from me, pal. I simply described exactly what that place was like. You don't have to like my description, but that was exactly what it was like.

 

Point is, it's not the fact that they're gay that was bothering you. It's the fact they're obnoxious and fu*king annoying as hell. That's nothing to do with being gay and everything to do with being obnoxious and annoying. I'm sure you'd find them just as irritating if they were straight.

Some people are just ****ing irritating. Not wanting to be among them is hardly a crime.

 

I think you just described this forum

 

Kelso - replace the words "gay/homosexual/camp" etc. with "Scottish/SNP member/jock" etc., re-read your post and tell me what you would have thought -

 

Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut here. You can't force people to change their views by using the blunt instrument of the law.

The judge got it wrong here. The bakers weren't discrimimating against the guy because he was Scottish. They were objecting to the image he wanted portrayed on the cake particularly as they were being asked to manufacture it (and incidentally Scottish marriage remains outwith the law of the land in N.I). So why should these bakers be forced to sign up to this Scottish guy's SNP lobby group? I bet he could have been as Scottish and jock as you like and they'd have baked his cake if it had had a less offensive (to them) message.

I bet this guy knew exactly what he was doing. He didn't want his cake baked. He wanted it not baked and his message spread all over the media. Well f.ck off.

Imho the Scottish lobby are way too pushy and in our faces all the time (ha!). If they toned it down a bit they'd get a better hearing from the majority British community at large. But their constant, pushy demands are in fact rather wearing.

My wife once worked in the Scottish Office at Westminster. She had a number of Scottish female friends anyway and worked with a number of Scottish men and prostitutes' representatives at the time (not necessarily in her office but in the wider community). This was when Edinburgh was described as the 'AIDS capital of the world' particularly because of the number of intravenous drug users. Mid to late 90s.

Anyway, one day we were having a drink with others (including the Scottish female friends) and I made the following remark - If I'm drinking in the company of a a number of Scottish guys (which did happen sometimes back then) it "makes my flesh creep". The exact words used. Well what a stooshie! I was being anti-Scottish, a disgrace to the cause and the entirety of the nationalist community blah, blah, blah. I was simply expressing a male, British, majority viewpoint. Anyway, when the stramash had died down a bit I had a quieter chat with one of the Scottish females in the company (a desperately attractive Glaswegian so I was glad of the respite). Her view was that she understood exactly what I was saying but I could have used less inflamatory language to express my view. My response was - well I could have done but why bother when the phrase I did use summed up my feelings perfectly and the Scottish community are hardly famous for holding back? All this was played out against a backdrop of everyone there knowing I'd put myself on the line if I was a witness to an attack on Scottish people and had already done so on one notable occasion, of which they were all aware and, as far as I'm aware, none of them had ever had to do themselves. But apparently that wasn't good enough in itself. I should also be required to think in the right SNP way around my own nationality too. The minority dictating to the majority.

Well tough luck - I ain't gonna do it. That day I lost a bit of respect for the Scottish community especially when they get all uppity and demanding.

 

That is such a fundamental misconstruction of the discussion between me, you and others on this thread that there really is no point. You obviously live in an entirely parallel universe.

You didn't call me a homophobe no. But I was asking if what I've said would fit within your definition of one. You haven't answered.

I'm not angry at all at anybody. Just surprised you and they don't /didn't seem to get it.

What I feel isn't silly at all (where did I say that?) And I don't feel bad about it in the slightest either. I'm perfectly heppy with it because it was a visceral reaction. Were I to translate that into an opinion, belief, attitude or indeed prejudice then that would be an entiirely different thing. But I don't. I do the opposite. I have tried to explain the distinctions here to you now ad nauseum. I can only think that your refusal to 'get it' is a deliberate construct to favour your argument. It doesn't.

Yep. There was more than one reason that I said what I did. However, the important thing is, it was true whatever the reasoning.

I refer you to Necrobutcher's #117. He is saying exactly the same thing but (wisely) stayed clear. I should have done but didn't.

I have no need of your advice on how to approach a table of Latin American women thanks very much.

 

The bar where these meetings took place.

 

The old ones are always the best eh?

 

such a fundamental misconstruction of the the discussion! it is possible that we all arrived at the same conclusion erroneously though and what you wrote (several times) wasn't actually what we all understood it to be, but i think perhaps its you who is "definitely ... living in an entirely parallel universe!" on this one.

 

Fair point. But I doubt if those groups would draw a 'visceral reaction' (the same 'recoiling') from anybody as a group of camp, gay males did for me.

 

"all arrived at the same conclusion"? And there was me having noticed that there were those who arrived at exactly the same conclusion as me!

 

Fair post. OK, I'm gonna try another tack here.

1. I will admit that what I said was provocative and maybe deliberately so. I am thinking back over 15 years here and can't remember the exact circumstances entirely clearly. But the general concensus seems to be that what I said was obviously provocative, I should have known that (probably did) and that it would wind pretty much anyone up and especially that group. That was also the advice I received from the geordie lass at the time. OK then, point taken.

2. So, if I'd expressed myself differently, but said pretty much the same thing but less provocatively, would that have been OK then? or,

3. Should I have simply kept my feelings to myself and not articulated them at all? or,

4. Is there something fundamentally wrong in feeling like that in the first place?

 

Think again. Those ultra scotch people, with their gutteral speech, those little corners which develop around the mouth from years of speaking such drawled language, those big square heads and those ginger wigs.

 

What would your advice be to someone who used language like this?

"Imho the Scottish lobby are way too pushy and in our faces all the time (ha!). If they toned it down a bit they'd get a better hearing from the majority British community at large. But their constant, pushy demands are in fact rather wearing"

I suspect you'd advise them to take time to better understand how Scottish people feel about being part of Britain, maybe to go and talk to them to hear their views, perhaps to seek areas of common interest etc.

Yeah, basically you should spend a night in your local gay pub :biggrin:

 

Well I did but it didn't end well! But your quote is a good one. Point taken. That wasn't my best line.

 

I think Kelso is right when he says that many heterosexual males find the physical aspect of male homosexuality as a less than pleasant thought. In my younger, more adventurous days, I had a couple of best mates whom, I hesitate to say, I almost felt some sort of love for, in that we spent much time together, always providing encouragement, a shoulder to "cry" on, helping each other out of scrapes and potential mishaps and disasters - often finding ourselves in potentially intimate situations (such as finding that there was only one spare bed to grab some sleep in). But the thought of kissing them or anything sexual just turns my stomach. But then I would feel almost identically if I was expected to have physical relations with an extremely large women. It is just the way I feel, it can't be helped, just in the way some prefer brunettes to blondes, big or small boobs, etc,

I don't see that those feelings should be criticised, and I am sure that some gays would have similar feelings in the opposite direction. But I don't think I would articulate these feelings to gays or fat women in a social situation in the way described earlier. It would just be wrong to do so. If I did then I would expect a load of abuse back and it would be deserved.

I can't say I have ever found the more flamboyant displays of homosexuality in public particularly upsetting, though, unlike Kelso. It doesn't bother me at all.

What is far more important, in my view, is the fact that there is a degree of equality for gays. I think that is pretty much the case now, and acceptance will continue to increase over time. I have gay friends (sorry Arakel), I have and had gay relatives, I have sat by their bedsides when they dying of aids in the 90's, and I so I socialise with them and I don't think any of them would be aware of any anti gay feelings coming from me. I think that is the most important thing.

The cake story is big because of the vote on gay marriage in NI. I am pretty non-plussed about it all. But if I was a printer, I may well have turned down business that was to print pro Labour posters. I believe that it is my business and I should be allowed to choose what I printed, so I have some sympathy for the baker.

But I don't really care about gay marriage. But I am a little uncomfortable about children being brought up without both a mum and dad (as a choice). Personally, I think that combination works best, and I would think that a child brought up in a same sex relationship, or single parent family has a lesser chance (all other things being equal). I just think it is a less than ideal starting point. But that isn't enough, in my view, to prevent it.

From the opposite side, gays should try and understand that people have such feelings and not try to imply that they are being homophobic for thinking that way. Their lack of understanding annoys me, much in the same way it annoys Kelso. I don't like people telling me the way I must feel. What gives them the right? They do constantly demand and it becomes annoying (the same way that the SNP are becoming annoying, Kelso).

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with not liking them - and to call it homophobic is completely missing what it is people hate about them. I equally hate blokes that think they're tough/handy and do that "I'm well 'ard" walk - all shoulders and clenched fists. I hate people that pretend to be confident - I just get the feeling that I'm talking to an actor. It's the pretence and falseness we hate - not their sexuality, which is such an incredibly boring topic.