Gay cake row.

As far as I see it, offering a service doesn't oblige you to give that service.

Someone posted a pic on FB the other day of a flower shop in Hove, with a "witty" sign, saying that any Tory voters should make themselves known on entry in order to be "taxed" a 10% premium on any purchases, as he needed to "balance the books."

As a Tory, my reaction would've been to get plants from elsewhere, rather than go in and be offended and feel discriminated against. If he wants to rule out half of his customers because he's a leftie, then that's his choice, as far as I'm concerned. OK, I'm not saying being a Tory is the same as being Gay (Baxter Basics and all that) but I'm just saying that people should be able to choose to serve who they want to serve and on the flip side, in an age where you can review anything and everything, informed customers can choose whether they want to shop from bigots, lefties, pouves or racists.

 

A fair point Moog. But my counterargument would be that at present there is no law saying that we cannot disciminate against Tory voters. Or away fans (if you are a pub owner). Or winning gamblers (if you are a bookmaker). However, where anti discrimination laws do exist, these should trump the preferences of the business owner imo.

 

I actually had the very same though pattern as this, but in reverse. I do think both are having their rights impeded on, and I would not like to see (in an ideal world) anybody being told to act in a way which they did not want to.

In the clash of rights though (although one is on the stand, this is what it is), I’d rather defend the one which says that businesses offering to members of the public do not discriminate, over the one which defends a shopkeeper to discriminate. I respect religion and peoples religious views, but I would rather protect things which are less of a choice: like skin colour, sexuality and disability. If he set up the business as a Christian wedding business, then the court would probably not have charged him, as it would be a business based around his religious beliefs (even if the way I perceive the bible is completely at odds with this) rather than as a public service.

 

Just to be clear, is this "Gay Cakegate" or just "Cakegate"?

 

Cakegayte.

 

Cake row sounds fabulous.

 

Anyone that does anything on religious grounds is a complete tw@ and should be regularly laughed at. If they do anything that upsets other people on religious grounds, they ought to be horse-whipped. Then laughed at.

 

Should the law protect the rights of the Christian baker not to sell a product that contravenes their belief (in the same way a Kosher/Halal butcher shouldn't have to sell pork) or the rights of the gay couple to not be discriminated for their sexuality?

Not sure.

On a human level though, I'm with the gay couple over the bigoted baker every day of the week. Religion can be a force for good, but in this case (as so often it seems) it is the reverse.

 

You've offended me, and I'm now going to have to sacrifice a goat with your name on it.

 

How can a cake be gay when it doesn't have a d*** or a poo chute? Or was that the reason for the row?

 

[video=youtube;veNjYhcJ9IE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veNjYhcJ9IE[/video]

 

Got no time for all the religious bullshxt that discriminates and am totally a-religious, but if I was, would I believe Jesus would hate someone who was gay or refuse to bake a cake for them because they loved each other and wanted to get married, no, these 'cake-gayte' bakery homophobic , biggoted, fruitcakes (no pun intended) ultimately got what they deserved...It shouldn't even come down to law, like racism it's about bloody humanity...

 

Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut here. You can't force people to change their views by using the blunt instrument of the law.

The judge got it wrong here. The bakers weren't discrimimating against the guy because he was gay. They were objecting to the image he wanted portrayed on the cake particularly as they were being asked to manufacture it (and incidentally gay marriage remains outwith the law of the land in N.I). So why should these bakers be forced to sign up to this gay guy's lobby group? I bet he could have been as gay and camp as you like and they'd have baked his cake if it had had a less offensive (to them) message.

I bet this guy knew exactly what he was doing. He didn't want his cake baked. He wanted it not baked and his message spread all over the media. Well f.ck off.

Imho the gay lobby are way too pushy and in our faces all the time (ha!). If they toned it down a bit they'd get a better hearing from the majority heterosexual community at large. But their constant, pushy demands are in fact rather wearing.

My wife once worked in the Scottish Executive Sexual Health division. She had a number of gay female friends anyway and worked with a number of gay males and prostitutes' representatives at the time (not necessarily in her office but in the wider community). This was when Edinburgh was described as the 'AIDS capital of the world' particularly because of the number of intravenous drug users. Mid to late 90s.

Anyway, one day we were having a drink with others (including the gay female friends) and I made the following remark - If I'm drinking in the company of a a number of camp guys (which did happen sometimes back then) it "makes my flesh creep". The exact words used. Well what a stooshie! I was a homophobe, a disgrace to the cause and the entirety of the left-wing community blah, blah, blah. I was simply expressing a male, heterosexual, majority viewpoint. Anyway, when the stramash had died down a bit I had a quieter chat with one of the heterosexual females in the company (a desperately attractive geordie so I was glad of the respite). Her view was that she understood exactly what I was saying but I could have used less inflamatory language to express my view. My response was - well I could have done but why bother when the phrase I did use summed up my feelings perfectly and the gay community are hardly famous for holding back? All this was played out against a backdrop of everyone there knowing I'd put myself on the line if I was a witness to a homophobic attack and had already done so on one notable occasion, of which they were all aware and, as far as I'm aware, none of them had ever had to do themselves. But apparently that wasn't good enough in itself. I should also be required to think in the right pc way around my own sexuality too. The minority dictating to the majority.

Well tough luck - I ain't gonna do it. That day I lost a bit of respect for the gay community especially when they get all uppity and demanding.

 

Sad Kelso had respect for you and a lot of your views on here, but disagree about this! The gay community have had to fight, like the black communtiy for equal rights in the past. Some people may not have liked it, but thankfully equality has finally arrived, at least in this country.

 

Really? Well I'm all for your fight. Just don't tell me how to think about myself OK? That's what they were doing and you are now asking.

 

in summary
"i told a bunch of gay people that gay people (as in, the people who i can identify as gay) are disgusting. they responded that i was disgusting. THIS IS WRONG!!!! no one can tell me i'm disgusting. it's an affront"

good post

 

Kelso's post has genuinely shocked me, and i don't often get shocked about what I see on this site I must admit...

 

apparently it's a majority male heterosexual viewpoint too! maybe we should have a poll? for me it's only a problem when they make a loud phlegmy sound. horrible noise

 

No. I'm allowed to feel what I feel. It was an honest expression of my visceral sexual reaction in that situation. I will defend gays right to get up to whatever they like themselves. It's a free country. But I won't be dictated to about what I feel. My view isn't unusual. It's probably fairly mainstream but largely unexpressed. Of course, most of the time, it isn't an issue because the majority of heterosexuals won't find themselves in that situation. The circumstances pertaining to me at that time were unusual.

What I can tell you though is that it was a 'visceral' reaction. Not a social construct. And I will continue to hold it. But if you want to press me, next time I see a gay guy getting beaten up by six homophobes I might just step away and leave him to the wolves.

 

you truly are a noble soul. rescuing gays from mobs of men and packs of wolves!

still though, as you clarified perfectly, you are allowed to express your views on homosexuals, but they aren't allowed to express their views on you. it's helpful to know the rules before they play!

i'm also a little surprised that the majority of hetrosexual males have never been in a situation of talking to real live gays. second poll of the thread needed?

 

(sigh) depressing thought, given the fact there are no openly gay football players in the League, it sadly doesn't surprise me, though there must be loads of gay players, how sad is that?...can't see how you can argue against it.... humanity?! ...to be fair, think it is slowly changing and attitudes in general society have a great deal over the last few years...who knows maybe Watford could be a beacon and sign an openly gay player...

 

Wow, wot an all round mr nice guy...you heard it here first...

 

.

I've walked the walk. Have you? Or are you permanently stuck in the St. Albans Road?

 

Yeah. It was a noble act and I did it. Have you? Most people walk by on the other side and don't get involved if someone's getting a hard time (for whatever reason) and the odds are against them. Not me. I'm a rescuer.

I'm sure most heterosexual people have been in the company of gays. I have loads of times. I only found it off-putting when it was a bunch of limp-wristed male gays in pink. That "made my flesh creep" (in case you missed it the first time) and my solution was to go somewhere else. If it hadn't been for my wife's posting I'd have never been there in the first place. That's an entirely different thing from defending to the death anybody's right to do whatever/dress/behave how the hell they like. I'd just rather it wasn't in my space thank you.

I'm f.cked if I'm gonna apologise for how I 'feel' to a bunch of pc apologists.

 

Agreed! So there you go.

 

you don't like flamin' gays and reserve the right to tell them that you find them disgusting. the gay guy/gay girl/normal sane person tells you that they find you less than palatable though, then it's part of a witch hunt. you don't want to apologise for how you feel about the gays, but seemingly you want the gays/pc apologists/normal people to apologise to you for they feel about you. you are happy to police the behaviour of these people doing their own thing (don't wear pink clothes in my space) but not so happy to have your own behaviour policed (i can be a **** to whoever i want in their space)

you've fully embraced the illogicality, ridiculousness and hypocrisy of it three times now, so well done for owning it at least. and since you've clearly committed to rationalising it away, then i guess we'll just leave it there and ignore the whole element of you instigating a situation, complaining about the reactions, attributing this behaviour to a whole bunch of other people and then getting annoyed that someone else just did the exact same thing in northern ireland to your apparent consternation

 

I think this thread just went full "I'm not racist, I have black friends."

Brilliant stuff!

 

I don't not like gays or like them especially or find them disgusting. Everyone's an individual. I'm indifferent to their sexuality. But the important thing is to be tolerant of difference and to defend anybody's right to be different and to be in a minority. I didn't tell them I didn't like them. I wouldn't have done that. I just preferred to be elsewhere. I don't not like them. I told some other people, some of whom also happened to be gay, what my 'visceral' reaction was in a certain situation. I think maybe some people on here need to look up the definition of the word 'visceral'. It's not about logic or rationality.

Police someone's behaviour? What are you on about? I simply chose to remove myself from their space and had the temerity to say why that was to some other people and now you. Witch hunt? Need apologising to? You're making it up!

The point is here that what's required is to be tolerant of difference. Not to feel the need to feel guilty about how you 'feel' as any number of of pc advocates seem to feel they have the right to tell you.

As for the cake. Don't pick a baker who you know aren't going to bake it just to make a point in court. Pick one who you think will bake it then you get your cake and everyone's happy. I'm sure there were lots of alternatives. And above all, don't hit people around the head with the blunt instrument of the law to try and make them feel differently to what they do. It doesn't work as the couple in this case showed. They accepted their £500 fine and said they would do exactly the same thing again. Good on 'em.

 

i also like he idea that a bunch of creepy gays are somehow representative of a whole 'community' and that every LBGT person is not only flaming, outrageous and skin crawlingly camp, but also completely in your face about gay rights, whatever time of day.

In my experience, gay people don't have time for jobs, families or hobbies, because they're too busy talking Polari, having Kikis, making outrageous comments, sexually harassing even moderately attractive straight people, and then finishing it up by militantly demanding that gays be given dominance over all humanity. It makes my blood boil.

 

Why is that so wrong?

I don't think there is anything wrong in someone trying to demonstrate or explain their feelings or opinions by using their own experiences as examples.

Far better, and more credible, than if they had just been accepting what they read it in a book, saw on TV, what their lecturer told them, etc, etc.

 

Are you really being serious...I know it's a football forum, but I expected a bit more of an argument than that....

 

Is the inability to recognise irony another trait?

 

To be honest in a year that Nic Cruwys was beaten sensless by fans, and we see the pain that caused, for you to bring out a statement you would let a gay guy facing six homophobes 'leave them to the wolves'...lets be honest , I'm honestly don't care what you or your posse of mates have to say...there are loads of fair minded people in the 'real word' outside this forum who would find your comment(s)pretty shocking.

 

You really don't get the point do you!? The point is that when that actually did happen I didn't walk by on the other side. I waded right in there and probably saved him from a severe beating. Have you ever done the same? But apparently that and being an advocate of the tolerance of difference and minorities in any number of ways isn't good enough. I'm also required to think differently at the core of my being. And that's when I'm afraid you can do one.

Edit: I think what you need to do here is start to follow a thread through properly and not just cherry-pick particular lines at random and then take some nauseating, sanctimonious moral high ground.

 

Woah. It all kicked off during the graveyard shift.