The four things that remain outstanding for me are these: 1. Was it entirely necessary for the final shot to be a fatal one? Eleven shots had been fired. Some may well have been warning shots but some had found their mark. Still the guy keeps coming. Very pertinent to this question is - was it the the officer's last bullet? I've asked the question before in this thread. Does anyone know the answer? Because if it was, and the officer would presumably know that, then he could easily have had the attitude - it's the last one, better make it a good one then. I entirely appreciate that it's very easy to sit here typing this out, weighing up the pros and cons, whereas in the real life situation it all happens incredibly quickly and, police officer or not, he was in a situation that was a personal threat to his safety. 2. I asked the question - did he have to get out of his car? Almost as soon as I asked it I knew the answer was probably yes and that's been confirmed on here and in his own interview when he was quite clear - that was what his training required him to do - when he was asked the same question. So is his training always right to say that's what he should do on all occasions then? The public is constantly advised by the police not to be 'have-a-go heroes'. I find that hard to accept because I'm a 'have-a-go' kinda guy and can think of four occasions when I have 'had a go', one of which I may very well have been extremely lucky to walk away alive from. However, maybe the police should take some of their own advice on board now and again too. Even if the perp might get away temporarily, sometimes it might just not be worth it. Discretion over valour - wait for the back up! 3. Some on here have argued 'cause and effect'. For me that simply means that I recognise that the group who will always see every incident of this nature as the racially motivated 'execution' of an unarmed black man by a white police officer are there, will always be there and certainly aren't going anywhere else anytime soon. And no doubt their views are further confirmed and polarised into 'them and us' by the teachings of the likes of the Revs. Sharpton and Jackson. The only way that will change is with a top down approach. Once you assume public office you're not a freelancer anymore. You have a duty to address the big picture and make an attempt to solve the problem, or at least improve things, pragmatically. So, is enough being done? 4. When, when, when will the gun culture question be looked at seriously (and I recognise you've identified this as the elephant in the room yourself). Is it a generational thing at all? Quite honestly the rest of the developed world, and most of the undeveloped one too, look on and would giggle at the stupidity and ineptitude if it wasn't so serious.
All good points, Kelso. Regarding 1, I think the main thing many of us forget is that it's all well and good dissecting something when we're secure in our homes and comfy chairs, but a different thing in the heat of the moment when you're in personal fear for your life and have a guy who already overpowered you once charging towards you. None of us will ever know what went through the officer's mind, but bearing in mind Brown was shot multiple times and yet still refused commands to get on the floor while charging at Wilson, I think it's fair to conclude the officer's life was in danger. The man had a split second to decide what to do and finally fired a lethal shot at 8 feet. If you consider how far away that is in the context of someone aggressively charging you when you know they are your physical better, that's a very short distance indeed. Regarding 4, even a large proportion of the US population see the current gun laws as insane. It's very split along left wing/right wing lines, as you might expect. The main issue is the NRA is insanely powerful and revised interpretations of the US constitution have redefined what the right to bear arms actually means. The current interpretation is very modern, arising within the last couple of decades (and directly as a result of NRA lobbying). Unfortunately, I don't see gun control becoming any more stringent than it is now in my lifetime.
You suggested that I read the statements not tiny soundbites from them. I would like to see these statements, for example that say the the officer shot a fleeing man (which you seem to be please to accept as gospel), yet he wasn't shot in the back. Did he flee backwards? This is probably a better summation of what happened. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...utors-think-happened-in-ferguson-9882433.html Your opinion that this was an "execution" is a disgraceful view to take. You should read up on the case before jumping to these dangerous conclusions. Your point about tens of thousands of protesters cant all be wrong just has no relevance as there are around 316 million people in the USA - where are they? The fact is that the Grand Jury were given unprecedented access to to all the evidence they wanted. This is totally against what normally happens in a Grand Jury decision where they already have a recommended charge to discuss and decide upon, after only seeing evidence presented by the prosecution. In this case they were not guided or influenced on a charge and had carte blanche on who they heard from meaning that they heard from over 60 witnesses over 3 months. The authorities went totally out of their way to ensure the fairest, best informed decision would be reached. Yet you, call it an execution and imply that it was all a cover up. It is so easy for you and Kelso to sit behind the safety of your keyboard, implying racism, or that the riots wouldn't have happened if the police hadn't executed a black man, and amazingly, giving the police the benefit of your advice from across the world - but in reality, you just don't have a clue. I have been in similar circumstances myself, but even I would hesitate to criticise an officer who is facing such a situation. Sometimes you just have to be there to feel the fear.
Regarding 1. Accepted. Regarding 4. Very sad but probably true. You'll have a better handle on that than me.
This is a final request. I was actually going to like your post until I read the last para. Up until then everything you said was fine. Hint - I read what you said. Then you went off on one against me again. Have you bothered to read the exchanges between me and Arakel ovet the last 24 hours at all? Presumably not. The accusation I've made against you is that you don't actually read what's written before you form a pre-judgement that, seeing who's written it, they must be in the wrong, arguing sh.te and have some sort of 'agenda' to confuse. So, as far as I'm concerned, you are now drinking in the very, very last chance saloon. If you want to keep having a go at me unjustifiably then I suggest you depart these forums (I couldn't give a toss if I'm the new boy and you're an old lag) and give the rest of us a break so we can discuss things seriously in the absence of the 'agenda' which you obviously do have. You can always drive the 85 miles to watch your mate's kids in pantomime (that's the mate who ripped you off in business b.t.w.) because that's the best option you've got left. Good luck. Merry Christmas.
...and breathe! A final request? What are you on about again? You spent the first half of this thread implying that the events surrounding the shorting were to do with racism, and then you spent more time questioning the make up of the jury, implying that it was a racially biased set-up, and you have also criticised the police for not getting more blacks in the force, and you have also criticised the individual actions of the officer telling us how you would have done it better, blah, blah, blah, and telling us how a British police officer would have handled things better. That was the general gist of your contributions to this thread. All the above was when I was trying to argue the opposite with both you and Moose, you calling me childish and pathetic for continuing with my stance, etc, etc and before you actually read Arakels excellent contributions. Yes, you now have partially changed your tune in the face of the evidence, and I give you credit for that. But it is a shame that you, Moose, Forza and thousands of others initially leap to pathetic assumptions of racism and murder before making the criticisms that you do. That is what thousands of others in Ferguson have done, as they are destroying other people's property and businesses. In this world of rapid communication, social media, etc, in my view, it is responsible to start off with the view that the law and order authorities have behaved correctly, and then perhaps changing your view if you see that the actual evidence contradicts that view, rather than the other way around. As for this latest petulant post, I'll leave when I want, unless the mods want me to leave first. And thanks for confirming my expectations. I was expecting someone to take a little dig and delight in my unfortunate business deception I explained in the other thread, and you didn't let me down. Surprisingly, it wasn't Moose or Clive. We live and learn.
Rarely have I come across someone who makes me question the will to live so comprehensively. Others can check back if they wish - I doubt they will be remotely interested in doing so. Grand Jury 9-3 white - black. Fact. Nothing is implied by that. Would it be a good idea to have more black police officers in the police force in the US (and here too) - sure. You pointed out particular difficulties that might exist around delivering that with specific examples. I LISTENED. Geddit? Sure it would have been different here - no guns. Sure we can question police actions both here and in the US. Or do you think the public should just accept police actions on all occasions just because they're the police? If you do, and you were once one I take it, then thank eff that you're not one anymore - because you sure do have an inflated view of your own importance. Is there an undercurrent of racism in the US? Sure there is. Arakel has articulated it excellently, from the point of view of 'the man on the spot' and told us that it works both ways. I accept that because I'm LISTENING to what he says. The point is you're not interested in constuctive debate. You have tunnel-vision and an inability to, or an unwillingness to, really LISTEN to anything else anyone is saying from an alternative viewpoint. I'm not particularly interested in where a debate starts off. I'm far more interested in where it ends up. Hopefully with more common ground and a narrower area of disagreement. That would be healthy. You obviously think differently. I'm not sure exactly what your agenda is but you sure do have one! It seems to be something along the lines of - present initial view, listen to nothing that's being said by the opposition, stick rigidly to the exactitude of initial premise and learn nothing in consequence. Well I'm done. I'm obviously not the first one you've fallen out with irredeemably on here and that in itself should be informative. As much as many of your posts are interesting and informative you're really not someone that's worth engaging with. So eff off and do one. I will continue to criticise your posts as I see fit but boy do I intend to be cutting. The supreme irony is that you finish off your post with "we live and learn"! Something that you're obviously pathologically incapable of.
The black community look after their own, I think we can all agree on that. The Police in America and here have huge problems getting information from black people against their own. The Police aren't trusted, hated even. If that boy had stopped and had his hands up when he turned around every single witness statement would have said that, of that there can be no doubt. They don't. If he had dropped and the Officer kept pumping bullet after bullet into him every witness statement would have said that. They don't. If he had walked slowly towards the Officer and had still been shot at then every witness statement would have said the same. They don't. It's not too difficult to work out the truthful and the made up witness statements that the grand jury were able to see. There is plenty of racial injustice out there but Mike Brown is not it.
My stance in this thread was that... Firstly, that the death of Brown was not a case of execution, but far more of a tragic event. You seem to have accepted that I was right following Arakels intervention. Secondly, that a tragic event should not ever be the trigger for such lawlessness under the false banner of racism and police random executions. Maybe, you still don't agree with me, but it is not such an outrageous concept to push for. Latterly, my main point (and my agenda, if you like) is that I believe that people should examine the facts before jumping to conclusions just because that enables them to make their political or social point. That goes for on forums as much as it does on the streets of Ferguson, because such unrest often starts on social media. Again, I cannot see how anyone should be so upset about that concept. I have given my reasons for this strongly held view, and have argued strongly against you and Moose as you have made those early, incorrect assumptions. If you don't like that, tough. I think it is telling that the majority of your later posts have concentrated on personal criticism of me rather than what my opinions were. That is a shame and a tactic that Moose regularly uses when he can't point to the facts. And you finish with "So eff off and do one. I will continue to criticise your posts as I see fit but boy do I intend to be cutting." Well quite honestly, if that is your attitude then I may well hang up my keyboard (as I can't really be arsed) as I already have another stalker on here ready to personally attack me at every opportunity. But carry on, we'll see how it goes.
Much better except that I made no 'assumptions'. I'm happy to see how it goes. I don't do 'stalking'.
Well not entirely. White so called 'witnesses' might have had an agenda to tell people porkies in the various scenarios you've described. Works both ways. However, on this occasion, I accept that the police officer's recollection of the actual events is by far the most convincing.
To speak to this point, a career in the police force in the US requires a degree in some law related field (e.g. law, criminology, etc). I know this because I invested the possibility of a career in the police force when I first moved over here (I wasn't eligible due to lack of citizenship, but I qualified in every other way). In areas like Ferguson, university degrees are very rare due to a combination of economic and social factors. This means that there are virtually no qualified recruits from the black community in the area. The small number that have the educational background aren't interested in the police force. It's a difficult problem to solve. I'd agree that it would be prudent to try and recruit more black officers, but in this case the overwhelming number of white officers in a black dominated area reflects the lack of educational background in the local residents rather than a racial bias in recruiting.
OK. Understood. So the first thing then would have to be to try and convince more of the black community of the value of education. Sounds like a similar problem to the one on many 'sink estates' here with the added complication of a racial element. It's ironic that one of the most widely circulated photographs of Michael Brown is of him at his 'graduation' ceremony although I'm guessing that's from high school.
Had to have been high school. He wasn't old enough to have graduated from college. US schooling is also extortionate compared to the UK. I think for a lot of less well off families it's out of reach even if they want to do it. Given that black Americans tend to be less well off on average, it's certainly a contributing factor.
Do I have to get a name check in every single one of your posts? As for contributions to the thread the sum total of your insight seems to be - black people commit more crime/therefore more likely to experience justified lethal force. Thanks for 8 pages of that.
OK. Understood again. The more you relate, the more I'm glad I still live on this side of the pond ...
You only read what you want to read, Moose. Anybody, of any colour, that commits a violent crime such as robbery or attacking an armed police officer is more likely to experience lethal force against them. I think those that are trying to make this a race issue are actually demonstrating their own bigoted attitudes.
I can only speak to HPD and the local Sheriffs office, but here you only need 40 or so hours of college credit (about 3 semesters of college) to meet their requirements. I looked quickly at the St. Louis PD and they only require a High School Diploma and the officer to complete 20hrs of college credit during the 24 months after your graduation from the police academy. I've not checked Ferguson PD, but if it's anything else like small cities in Texas, the recruitment requirements may be even lower than that.
I No. Don't presume to give me some sort of Squibba type essay assignment. You're not worth a long post anymore. Sure you stick to your guns. But there's also recognising when the debate's moved on. Moose summed up your modus operandi perfectly in the first para. of his #105. I refer you to it.
No long thread was required, just one quick example would partly justify your comment, but you can't even provide that! What a loser! Just as I thought, Kelso, you and Moose are just like one and the same, tons of personal abuse in attacking me, but precious little when it comes to specific criticisms of what I have said. I can see you two getting on well! :love2: :smile: ...and, as you say that #105 sums up your views, then you have slipped back to the criticisms of the officer involved. A leopard can't change his spots for long, can he! The truth will always come out.
Yawn. The first para! Time to stop digging. The record is stuck in the groove. Black Sabbath - Paranoid. It goes blip, blip, blip ...
No. But I will consider what's being said and think whether I need to take some of it onboard. I'm not like Arkle under the starter's gun at Ascot wearing blinkers - there's the finishing post way down the track and I must get to it without even thinking about glancing sideways at any point. That's how I'll win the race. Different race on here. To quote Moose again, #155. Was it worth eight effing pages with you (nine now) when ALL you've really contributed is an endless repetition of what you said on page one?
Right, I'll give you yet another opportunity to redeem your credibility. You have said that I have been blinkered, with no looking sideways. Tell me where I have not answered your questions where relevant, or tackled someone's view, where relevant, or ignored your view, or Moose's view. I know i havn't agreed with much of what you have said, but I have normally spoken about them. Is it that you are just upset that you havn't changed my opinion, in the same way that you have changed your own? This is a genuine question, tell me, as I am genuinely puzzled about your personal attacks and outbursts. Just a few words of explanation would do, providing it includes specifics.
I have asked you several times to provide one specific that backs up your personal criticism, and you cannot come up with one. Just as I thought, it was just a bit of childish, playground name calling. No wonder you spend your time watching birds of the feathered variety, at least they can't question you when you spout unsubstantiated rubbish.
No you havn't got to me at all, it is you that has resorted to the personal abuse, not me! I was just genuinely puzzled as to why you were getting so personal without foundation, that's all! :biggrin:
There has been a similar Grand Jury decision in New York today. Apparently a black guy resisted arrest and was overpowered by several officers, with one officer being particularly strong with a head lock that restricted the guys breathing. He later had a heart attack partially caused by the struggle. Not good. There is a video of the incident and it doesn't look good and, I would suggest on first viewing, provides a stronger reason for anger than the previous incident in Ferguson. Hopefully, it isn't used as an excuse for more violence and rampaging, affecting totally innocent people.
