Who Stays And Who Goes?

I think a couple of decent prem quality defenders wouldn’t have gone a miss. We can all remember missed chances in games as to why we didn’t win, but the players we had should’ve been good enough.

 

I'm with a19tgg we need strikers more than we need defenders.

We could probably do with a decent defender or two as well, but if we can't afford to improve both up front and in defence, we should spend the money we have improving our strike force as a priority.

 

Agree, but surely buying a competent CB and extra decent full back costs less than a guaranteed 10 goal a season premier league striker?

Deeney was atrocious last season, but the other players aren’t given a chance such is his influence at the club. I don’t see how Gray could have done worse with the minutes Deeney got to be honest.

 

For the penalties Deeney scored, I feel as much was lost with a lack of off the ball movement that Gray does try to provide. But it's marginal.

 

Agreed, I’m just going off the fact that the number of goals we let in was bang average as far as our premier league record is concerned, yet our goals scored was by far the worst.

I got ridiculed for it in another thread, but Gray only played 744 minutes, so has a far better goal scoring record than Deeney from open play. Neither are or were the answer, but Gray would’ve probably got 10 goals if he’d played most of the season.

 

TBF Gray's out of possession play is dreadful. Standing around with your hands on your hips
whilst trousering 80k a week is not good . Gray's "in possession" play is not that great either .

 

I do think QSF’s ridiculously negative approach made the defence look better than it was, and the opposite for the attack. We set up to draw 0-0 at home to Sheff Utd and Bournemouth.

Only 3 teams conceded more so I wouldn’t call it average.

 

You’re right, but he also shipped 8 against city... so that didn’t exactly help our or his defensive record, we let 12 in against that one team in total, but they all go in the same column of course.

 

Yeah, not only that, but we just never looked safe at the back, how many let-offs did we get against Burnley, only to end up conceding late anyway? Other teams may have had worse defensive records, but never looked as shambolic as us

 

So would mine be if i was in the box waiting for a cross from players that couldn't cross.

 

Defending has been a problem for a few seasons now. If we had a defence that conceded no goals then we only need 1 the other end to win a match.

 

The biggest problem is we don't score enough goals, we did not even manage 1 a game

 

We still let in four more in one of our other premier league seasons, but we also scored four more and obviously didn’t get relegated. In another season we let in the same amount as last season (64) but scored 8 more and again didn’t get relegated. In our best ever premier league season we finished 11th but only let 5 less goals in, however we scored a whopping 16 more goals. When you consider we let a record breaking 8 goals in one game in this season then realistically it’s the lack of goals that sent us down not the defence. The defence has always been a problem, but we’ve let in more and not been relegated, yet we’ve never scored so few goals. Whatever way you look at it 36 goals is a pathetic amount, but conceding at least 64 is not an unusual amount for us, we’ve done it twice before.

 

Would it possibly be because our defence was so alarmingly leaky earlier in season especially, that we ended up sacrificing attacking verve to be stable at back. It certainly fept that way to me during QSF phase. So while the end stats may not look much different for goals conceded, the method to achieve that seems entirely relevant.

 

We missed 3 absolute sitters in that Sheff Utd game. That was a huge opportunity missed.

 

And Doucoure against Arsenal at the end, should’ve scored.

 

Fair points. I’d argue it isn’t just raw stats though. Our defenders were so poor on the ball, especially the CBs. That has an impact on the attack as well if they keep panicking and shanking balls. Kills attacks before they can begin.

Attack as a team, Defend as a team and all that.

 

That is true. However QSF setting for a winnable home games with 3 centre backs and 2 holding midfielders made his mindset clear. People claimed he was fixing the defence first, but unfortunately he never got past plan A being such a limited coach. It truly was an amazing decision to rehire him.

 

Absolutely. That was a really huge point within the season. QSF's first game back, 2-0 down and playing terribly, a rip-roaring second half to get it back to 2-2...and then Doucoure missing that great chance to win it.

I'm sure it would have made a difference not just because of the points but it would have brought the feel good factor back. In the end a great draw felt really deflating because of that miss.

 

After the restart we did better and scored at least once in 6 out of 9 games. But the defending was awful.

 

But the finishing was even worse

 

Based on the 'fan's choice 11'
our 1st 11 would be Foster Ngakia Dawson Wilmot Estupiñan Hughes Capoue Quina Sarr Suarez Pedro.
That means we could sell Doucs £27.5m Del £17.5m Bobby P £10m Pussy '£7m' Welbz £5.5m and Deeney £2.5m. Trouser around £70m, watch our young players' values rise this season and still have a mid table/playoff challenging championship reserve team: Bachmann Femenia Cathcart Kabasele Masina Dele Chalobah Cleverley Success Gray Sema. Sounds good to me.

 

Given how average the championship looks this season I'd be amazed if that suggested first 11 finished mid table. I'm not confident we'll keep all those, but if we did, and didn't have any serious injuries they should easily be top 4

Edit - misread that the midtable side would be the reserve side. Which i'd agree with, although it wouldn't be pretty to watch imo!

 

Reading a whole load of the suggestions above I think most of them make good points, although a number fall into the trap of making the answer a simple, snappy one.
I propose that there were multiple things going wrong. What @reids called a 'perfect storm' a while back.
Too many of the players were physically unfit at the start of the season. They found it hard to sustain a full 90 minute effort.
The defence was poor, more or less throughout the season. QSF tried to rectify this problem (quite probably acting directly under orders) but he did so by more or less sacrificing all attacking intent. The statistics therefore show some defensive improvement, but actually they were playing just as badly.
The attack was poor, but, not only the actual striking ineffective, but the whole set-up was ponderous, simplistic and timorous. This got worse as confidence drained. Nobody would make the passes, nobody would make the runs, nobody would take responsibility for shooting.
Even the mid-field was, for long periods of the season, merely average.
As has already been suggested, all these things fed off one another and it all spiralled down the plughole.
To complicate things, the season was fragmented; by three (four) different coaches, all trying to rectify the s**t they had inherited; and by the Corvid-intervention.
Add to all this several very poor VAR decisions. We were arguably robbed of 2 points at Newcastle and unarguably robbed of another 2 at Spurs.
So - forget snappy one-liners. They are not necessarily wrong, but they don't tell anything like the whole story.
Or - if you insist on the breviloquent - how about 'One Sorry Sh*t-Show' ?

 

With the absence of anything substantial to speak about (calm before the storm I suspect), here's my take on the different categories from within the current squad.

Vital, must retain
Sarr, Foster, Hughes, Capoue, Suarez, Estupinan, Pedro, Hernandez

Decent squad players who will play an important role
Dawson, Deeney, Masina, Ngakia, Chalobah, Janmaat, Quina, Sema, Wilmot

Will probably go, although would love to retain
Doucoure, Deulofeu, Welbeck

Surplus, not really needed anymore or can improve on
Pererya, Sinclair, Success, Gray, Cleverley, Cathcart, Kabasele, Kiko, Navarro, Bachmann, Pussetto

Wildcard
Penaranda, Dele-Bashiru

Gone already
Gomes, Mariappa, Holebas

 

The surplus list looks too full with only 17 listed in the top 2 lists, out of the 3rd list we are only likely to retain Deulofeu and only because of his injury.

Gray, Cathcart and Cleverley would/should do well in this league.

Cathcart is getting old but he has enough experience to be of benefit to the team and Gray could do well depending upon the formation.

Kiko on his day can be very good, I agree they are few and far between, mainly because of his pace and link up with the RW.

 

I think Navarro actually might have a role to play since we all know what Janmaat is like, Ngakia ain't playing 46 (or maybe more) games this season and I think it's fair to say I don't want Dawson playing there if we can avoid it. In an ideal world, we'd all like to get rid of Gray, Deeney, Success and Penaranda, although it'll be a tough ask getting someone willing to pay their wages and/or a decent fee. Ideally it'd be Pedro, Suarez, Sarr, but I guess they'll need backup. Cathcart and Kabasele I think depends on what happens with the defenders we're linked with, as it stands we've effectively had one in and one out this summer, if we don't do much business defensively, then by all means keep them (they won't be a disaster in the Championship, certainly not as back-up), but I definitely would prefer the likes of Troost-Ekong (is a swap deal with Kabasele on the cards? Would suit both us and Kabasele, although I don't know what Udinese would think of that). Not sure about Cleverley, if he's got anything left, he'll be a fine option in the Championship, but have injuries basically ruined him by now?

 

The surplus list is not a list full of players I expect the club will sell, but I think are players who are either past their best or were never good enough in the first place. All can be improved on with astute signings in the transfer market, IMO. Having said that, I wouldn't have an issue in keeping the likes of Clevs, Cathcart, Kabs or Kiko just to bulk up the squad a bit. Even Pussetto I'd keep in the absence of any viable alternative on the wing behind Sarr (assuming Geri is going of course).

 

The above will pretty much be the squad for the start of the season. Won't see many coming or going as Gino doesn't usually get out of bed for the transfer window until the last week.

 

Is Navarro a thing? I've never seen him and I don't think I heard of his name until this month.

 

The cousin of Sietes.

 

Went to that Spurs game at MK Dons (ew) and actually thought Navarro looked pretty good against decent opposition, albeit in one game.

 

I tend to agree with you on most of this, but I'm not so sure about Gray as he is on so much cash? Maybe hang on to him until January and if he is not proving any better than he has been so far, then get rid of him if we can. Probably the best way is to try and get rid of him is to loan him out to someone who is willing to pay part of his wages, as that would probably be the only way we can at least reduce our outlay on him, even if they are only willing to pay 25% of his wages.

As for Kiko, I would hold on to him purely because of his versatility in being able to play left or right back, which makes him a useful squad member. Cleverly and Cathcart would also be useful squad members if not necessarily in the first eleven.

Finally I would also like to retain Kabaselle as there is a good player in there trying to get out, so like Gray I would give him to January to prove his worth, and if he does not become more reliable try and shift him then.

 

Is there actually any danger of them getting on with it...?

The shortest summer break we’ve ever had and we literally pi$$ing days up the wall and reducing the amount of time Ivic is actually going to have to build something settled before the opening day.

I can only hope that irons are in the fire all over the place, and that my frustration is misplaced due to the total lack of communication exhibited by the club.

I love Watford, yes. But the lack of anything decent to read about or get even a little excited about is beyond irritating.

I think I’ve read about 50+ iterations of who we’d keep and who should go in the last couple of weeks. Let’s have some action.

 

My big concern is the potential lack of squad depth with all the departures. I am not too worried about quality for the time being, we just need a decently sized squad for all the games (especially given our injury record) and surely we are one of the better placed clubs to achieve this?