The Difference Between Us And Burnley

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by SerbianHornet, Jun 30, 2020.

  1. SerbianHornet

    SerbianHornet Academy Graduate

    Firstly , I want to say that I didn't want to write anything in the match thread because I would basically repeat what everyone else said. But after watching Burnley last night I wanted to share my thoughts with you.

    As you probably now, Burnley have, like us, played three games so far. They got two wins and a loss(tbf it was in a match against Man City) which is five more points than us. On paper, our squad is much better and Crystal Palace ,who they played yesterday, are in a better position than Southampton. We should have better motivation for winning as we are in the relegation battle and they pretty much can't get relegated and are highly unlikely to get to European competitions places either. They made only 4 substitutes in total if possible 15 in these three matches (also 7 Burnley players played full 90 minutes in all three matches), yet for most parts of all their matches they looked fresher than their opponents.

    To sum up what I'm trying to say, thay have a weaker squad(they also pretty much don't have senior players oj the bench), they don't have the need to win like us, their opponents were stronger than our opponents, they rested less players than us and still managed to get five more points than us. And also concede the same amount of goals(although all of their five goals conceded were against Man City), look fresher and generally more up to it.

    So what I don't understand is why can't we at least play with their energy. Sure their play style isn't the prettiest (neither is ours at the moment tbf), but at this point of the season I'd rather we played like Burnley and get points than this s***show we saw in our last 2(or maybe 3) games.
     
  2. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    They have a better manager, as simple as that. Dyche has signed the right characters and he is able to motivate them. The club trust him, he runs the club, from the playing side, and everything goes through him.

    When he goes on a bad run, and he has had several of those during his time at Burnley, he's able to correct it. When we go on a bad run it's always terminal.

    For a club like us, it's the route we needed to take. I still maintain the worst decision the Pozzo's ever made was their first one, sacking Dyche. He's proved what a good manager he is and he proved it at Watford also.

    People often bemoan their style, but is ours any better? Our style is boot it to Deeney and hope for the best.

    The Pozzo's must regret sacking Dyche now as they've gone full circle and hired a British coach with a similar background as him.
     
  3. We hate 48

    We hate 48 Reservist

    Agree with this as it gets to the heart of the matter. The owners have a style of operation that Duxbury explains time and time again-it lasts beyond the manager/his support staff so when they get poached/leave/sacked, the club is able to move on.

    There is no room for a Giraldi/this Roy guy in a set up that gives the manager the control Dyche has/requires so even if Dyche leaves Burnley shortly as is rumoured with his stock value high the owners would have to admit their model has evolved (rather than failed as they wouldn't admit that) if they were to either consider approaching Dyche or indeed allowing NP and CS to get new contracts (whether we are in PL or championship) and run the club in their way.

    Maybe thats why the new manager bounce with NP has run its course because it doesn't work under our model. Whatever NP might have been told about how things are run -and this is just conjecture-the reality of working with (under?) Giraldi/Roy/Gino doesn't suit an NP or Dyche or BFS
     
  4. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    The one thing that struck me when Pearson was hired was the response from only the British players. They were all wagging their tales, but I didn't see anything quoted from non-British players. For whatever reason I think there could be some kind of divide within the camp. British and non-British. There was a photo on the official site, which I posted and made a joke of at the time, but it struck me that the group of players who were sitting around and joking together were only British ones.

    There's no doubt the British core of the playing staff immediately took to Pearson, but I'm not convinced it was felt throughout the camp and this could be the reason for the slump we're seeing right now. Since the restart only Dawson, Foster and Hughes have caught the eye, but obviously even Dawson and Foster had bad games against Southampton. Welbeck and Cathcart have done ok when called upon too.

    I've got no evidence of a divide, but it's only a hunch based on observation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  5. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Dyche has been allowed up till now to pick from a settled side who always seems to be fit generally and in form.

    They don't seem to have many bad signings - Vydra in terms of output is probably the worse.

    Not pretty but consistent in the main and effective.
     
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  6. reids

    reids Squad Player

    8 corner goals and 3 from FKs also helps. To keep beating this drum: set-pieces are so so important. Its genuinely mental how each PL team doesn't have a full time member of staff allocated for them tbf
     
  7. We chop and change manager so much that we never end up with a long term on-pitch identity (style of play) and aligned recruitment...

    Zola 352 tikka taka
    Bepe 442 direct
    Garcia’s brief tenure 451
    Joka 352 and some 442 mix
    QSF wanted 4231 ended up 442 direct
    Wally 352 god knows
    Silva 4231 / 433 expansive
    Javi tried 4231 and ended up 4222 direct
    QSF 352 direct
    Pearson 4231 direct

    We’re like the Vicky Pollard of football! It’s no wonder we’re up **** creek.

    At the moment we’re trying to play 4231 and don’t have a #9 fit for purpose.

    Dyche has had years developing an identity for Burnley

    We need to choose a coach and stick with them, and then mould the squad into what they need.
     
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  8. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    This isn't actually true though.

    Burnley's team is better than ours in most areas of the pitch - certainly with defenders and strikers anyway. The only area we might have an edge is in midfield including wingers, though having Deulofeu injured has negated that.
     
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  9. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Do you know anyone who could do that?
     
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  10. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! First Year Pro

    You can't argue with Dyche's record at Burnley, he's worked miracles there, and we'd all have him in a flash here (even the pro-Pearson lot among us). Only thing I'd say is, imagine entrusting Dyche to the players we had in the Championship Pozzo years lol
     
  11. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! First Year Pro

    Liverpool famously have a throw-in coach though, so surely set piece coaches must be fairly common, no?
     
  12. Harrybassetthater

    Harrybassetthater Academy Graduate

    I wonder if the players have a relegation clause in their contracts? I suspect that many do not as I cannot see much fight and enthusiasm in their performances of late!
     
  13. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    Just ask God and the amount of time he spent preparing free kicks and corner routines. Granted he also had players who could provide tremendous dead ball service as well. It is appalling our inability to get 'cheap' goals. reids should be on the staff if we have not got a dedicated member for set pieces. I mean what is the point of Eric Roy ? Spend that salary on reids.
     
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  14. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Reservist

    Also, Burnley seem to avoid recruiting players who either give up or turn to jelly when things get tough.
     
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  15. dsr

    dsr Academy Graduate

    That's true. One of the reasons Burnley always seem to struggle signing players is that Dyche would sign no-one at all rather than sign someone he doesn't want. He will not sign bad characters or people who give up when the going gets tough. (As a rule. Hendrick and Lennon clearing off even though still under contract might be an exception! Though they've never been a problem on the field.)

    These last few weeks, we're starting to realise what an influence Ben Mee is as well. His 300th league appearance for Burnley last night, and he's been in the news with his interview after the plane incident at Man City, and represented the club in other aspects of the BLM issue, and clearly well looked up to by the squad; and all this while his baby daughter, aged 6 weeks but born 16 weeks prematurely, is in hospital. When a man like that is the captain, it makes it so much harder for anyone else in the side to let him down.
     
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  16. reids

    reids Squad Player

    Most set-piece coaches aren't actually the specialist coach you need and the analysts usually deal with them as a small part of their role (again rather than specialising), commonly they're usually either the assistant manager or a goalkeeping coach, below is a list of people who I know who deal with set-pieces at each club:

    Bournemouth: Tom Webber (1st team out of possession analyst)
    Arsenal: Not a clue but I know Arteta coached set-pieces at City last year
    Aston Villa: Not a clue but I know Dean Smith has thought about hiring a set-piece coach after working with one at Brentford (https://www.expressandstar.com/spor...th-considers-set-piece-coach-for-aston-villa/)
    Brighton: Nick Stanley who splits his time between analysing and coaching set-pieces: https://theathletic.co.uk/1324382/2019/10/28/naylorbrightonevertonsetplays/
    Burnley: Not a clue
    Chelsea: Not a clue
    Crystal Palace: Not a clue
    Everton: Not a clue
    Leicester: Not a clue but spoken with their head of analysis who said they do a lot on them
    Liverpool: When I spoke to Michael Edwards (technical director) he said they already have a dedicated analyst and coaching team for set-pieces, alongside the throw-in coach
    Man City: Dedicated set-piece coach (Nicolas Jover) and set-piece analyst
    Man Utd: 2 analysts that alternate weeks on set-pieces alongside normal duties. No idea on coaching
    Newcastle: Not a clue
    Norwich: Not a clue
    Sheff Utd: Assistant manager Alan Knill is responsible for coaching them
    Southampton: Not a clue
    Tottenham: Not a clue
    Watford: Not a clue
    West Ham: Not a clue
    Wolves: Not a clue

    So the teams with the most focus around analysis on set-pieces are: Brighton, City, Liverpool and Leicester. 4 clubs who would likely be described as the smartest clubs in the league, what a shock. Total expenditure for the season would cost a club 20k-25k a year.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  17. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    Most football fans want their team to win, so they want their players to do well, apart from the odd boo-boy (Hello Andre). This means they remember all the good stuff the players do and tolerate some of the bad, thus overestimating their talent. On the other side of the coin, there’s no way that Burnley are the simple cloggers some like to portray them as. We might be irritated at their tactics at times but to be where they are in the table be assured they can play football.
     
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  18. Carpster

    Carpster Reservist

    Had the game on last night while I was doing other things. Was interested to see how they set up without a big target man and style they would play. Seemed to me that they were trying first time balls over the top for Matty to run onto. Played some very neat one touch play in periods. But there passion and desire to get the ball back is first class. Nothing but credit for that. Dwight McNeil looks some player he was absolutely everywhere. Picking the ball up deep and just driving at the Palace midfield and defence. Didn't get everything right but who cares when they are sweating blood for their position and club.
     
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  19. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! First Year Pro

    Anyway, what will become of Burnley if/when Dyche does go? They have an old squad too, with apparently little funds to replace the players that are leaving, and Mark Hughes is rumoured to be the leading candidate to take over. They'll be better placed once they eventually go back to the Championship, but they're not built to last at the top level neither, it will all come crashing down for them too
     
  20. leighton buzzard horn

    leighton buzzard horn Squad Player

    "We've got a better squad" - we've all been guilty of thinking this, but I'm not so sure now that it is true. We've got a squad with a lot of hype.
     
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  21. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Burnley I would say have players who have less talent but are more than prepared to dedicate themselves to the club and apply themselves fully for the time they are there. I imagine that if a player there ‘drops off’ or starts taking liberties, he’s quickly dug out for it.

    We have quite a few charlatans who have the talent without the hunger - and they have the safety in numbers that if they all do it, it can become chronic. That’s always been the danger of buying quality players that other clubs want to offload or signing up defenders to new contracts well after their best has gone.

    This club is desperate for a manager who makes the decisions and has the autonomy of a longer term contract to do so. That doesn’t happen with 1 year deals and Giraldi lurking over your shoulder.

    With a progressive manager under those circumstances, we could flourish, especially if we manage to bring some of the loans players back and integrate them - and I mean properly integrate them with regular game-time and not drips of time on the bench. We are too quick to boast about the young talent we buy without actually putting trust in them.

    If we lined up next season with Cucho, Suarez, Estupinan, Sarr, Doucoure, Deulofeu, Wilmot, Joao Pedro, Penaranda, Hughes (and Dahlberg as the backup GK) - the squad already looks fresher. Give them to a progressive manager with a clear, defined style and it would be exciting times.

    We need a clear out. Pereyra, Gray, Cleverley, Janmaat, Holebas, Kabasele, Mariappa, Gomes, can all go. I wouldn’t shed a tear if Cathcart, Deeney and/or Welbeck joined them. Giraldi has to go and that’s been required for quite some time. Then either back Pearson with a contract and more control or get some one else in with fresh ideas and trust them to put their stamp on things - preferably the latter.

    Lastly, and I said it after last season ended (even made a thread about it if anyone remembers!), but it’s time to move past Deeney as captain. He should have been phased out of the job over the past year or two IMO so it wouldn’t be the obvious ‘shock’ it will have when it now happens.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  22. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I agree, however the contract extension for Janmaat doesn't indicate the mindset is going to change anytime soon. Perhaps relegation would trigger a new approach, although that would mean the sale of Estupinan and Suarez I imagine to balance the books, as well as the obvious relegation sales.
     
  23. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    I think it's this in a nutshell: Dyche has built a team, we have a squad of players. We should be hanging our heads in shame as this is what Taylor did in the golden years.
     
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  24. lutonh8a

    lutonh8a Reservist

    I was actually quite impressed with some of their football last night, McNeil looks a real asset can't see him there for long. I think the difference between us and Burnley is that they have a way of playing and everyone knows their jobs and what they should be doing,whilst we often seem to not have a clue what our game plan is, Dyche has had time to implement his philosophy to his squad and when he brings players in they are brought into compliment the style, we just buy a load of players because they are cheap and hope for the best.
     
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  25. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    I also think Burnley recruit knowing their style and the type of character they need.

    Whatever way you dress it up, a club that signs Dawson and Sarr in the same window has no idea about their style or ‘identity’ on the pitch.

    Sarr has been a bright spot to the season - but he has far too much pressure on his shoulders now - and it was always madness of sorts to spend £40m on a winger and give him to a manger who did not play wingers.
     
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  26. lutonh8a

    lutonh8a Reservist

    Burnley have a better squad, they have a far better defence Mee and Tarkowski are miles better than out centre backs, Wood, Barnes, Vydra and even Rodriguez would probably be our best attacking options. We may be stronger in the middle but Dwight McNeil looks a real player as well.
     
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  27. reids

    reids Squad Player

    Even if you don't have great delivery for corners, there's still stuff you can do - short corner routines or the sort of clever routines that Bournemouth love to do like this



    or this

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/02yfbe78nyjlywr/vsBournemouth_9thNov.mp4?dl=0

    We just don't want to try anything different.
     
  28. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    It’s purely the type of players we both deliberately go after.

    Broadly speaking we go after three types of players, young, raw, talented players who are hot and cold and ultimately won’t be with us long.

    Players with undeniable skill, but always with an asterisk next their name, Bobby, Gerry Capoue etc.

    Then moneyball bargain basement crap like Dawson, because our owners think you can take a moneyball approach to defence, if you’ve got enough talent elsewhere.

    Burnley go for players who may not have the same like for like (peak) talent of those second type of players I listed above, but their overall performance levels will always be higher on average. They’ll always work harder and be happy to stick to a predefined game plan.

    Our problem is that the first and second type of player we sign rarely all perform to the best of their abilities at the same time. When they do we get a Liverpool result, something that you’ll probably never see as a Burnley fan. But more often than not they all perform well below their peak talent levels and you end up with a Southampton performance, again, something you would equally never or very rarely see as a Burnley fan.

    This isn’t the end of the world when you’re mid table, but when you find yourself with your backs against the wall I’m a relegation fight you see even less of the peak talent because they simply do not give a ****.

    Burnley also appreciate that a defender requires a minimum set of attributes, if you’re solid at the back you can get away with having lower peak talent levels further up the pitch, whereas with us when our talented players have a regular off day our substandard defence is exposed even more.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  29. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    Oh, and in terms of who has the better players they have.

    Their goalkeeper and defence are all better than ours.

    I’d say at peak performance our entire first choice midfield is better, but over a five or ten game spell their midfield will always average a higher rating out of ten.

    Obviously their forwards are better than ours, but that goes for the entire league.
     
  30. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    Third and final point. Dyche has been able to build a team around his style and way of playing. He chooses the players he wants to carry out that system.

    We do the opposite, assemble a load of players and then bring in a manager to work with them. I said in another thread, Pearson needed a quick fix. He looked at what we had and moved Doucoure forward and then utilised Gerry on one wing and Sarr on the other. It worked but once we lost Gerry it stopped working. He doesn’t have a plan B, but that isn’t entirely his fault. They aren’t his players and probably not the players he needs to implement the ideal system he would go with. That would take him a number of years with full control of the players he can buy.

    What’s the upshot of this? Combined with point one about the players we deliberately buy, it means we inevitably need a new manager every season or less to act as a defibrillator to temporarily spark the players into life, but it never lasts.
     
  31. Markoa$

    Markoa$ Reservist

    I can. I score from corners and FK’s in FIFA all the time.
     
  32. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    The only thing I envy about Burnley is that Dyche is named manager rather than Head Coach

    We need to change the Head Coach position to Manager
    We need to get rid of Giraldi
    We need the Pozzo's to hand over control of player recruitment to the manager
    Manager gets to decide whether they need to bring in a Head of Recruitment etc.
    We need to stick with a manager for 3 years minimum so the manager can have time to implement changes and build an identity/style of play.
    We need to get rid of the player on big salaries and long contracts who are ****/injured (again, 2 or 3 years to get rid of them all)
    We need to accept that relegation will probably happen this season or next
     
  33. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    They aren't going to change their habits though. Doesn't matter what happens.

    Combined, their two clubs have won 13 games out of a possible 60 in the league this season, scoring 52 goals and conceding 90. Udinese and Watford have very similar records and very similar problems.

    Recruitment and management across the entire project is all wrong at the moment.
     
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  34. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I don't agree with most of these really CB.

    Changing job titles is pretty cosmetic and so would be a diversion at best.

    Giraldi going would be a very positive step, agreed. His time was up 2 summers ago.

    Handing control of player recruitment to a manager is pretty unusual across the PL and Championship these days. Outdated model. Even Dyche has been moaning about decisions taken at board level in the last few weeks that he disagrees with but has no real ability to affect.

    Sticking with a manager is only worth it if they're successful. Which in turn reflects on their ability to work with the model I guess.

    Agree about injured and old players getting new contracts.

    And is the last point addressed to the fans or the owners?
     
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  35. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    Giving complete control of singings to the manager can be equally as disastrous as well as we know from out past.

    I think we still want our owners to be looking at the Sarrs and the Richarlisons, but the manager should be able to go to the owners and say this is the type of player I want and need and the positions we need strengthening, and they give the manager a choice of players he might like us to go after.
     

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