I believe in miracles, reasons to be optimistic…

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Hornet77, Nov 5, 2019.

  1. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Reservist

    Lower league football - you would of thought having to pay "Premier" prices for a seat would be a bit unfair. This is just my guess however, Hopefully we won't have to find out.
     
  2. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Reservist

    L*t*n - you seriously enjoy going there?
    QPR - cramped (decent atmosphere)
    Charlton - pain to get to
    Brentford - new stadium, yes please
    Barnsley - half empty and northern
    Bristol City - yes, a good one
    Birmingham - grim, especially if the natives get restless
    Fulham - nice if it's summer, cold and/or wet by the river otherwise
    Wycombe - industrial estate; oh, the glamour.
     
  3. 3000

    3000 Reservist

    Well you sound like a barrel of laughs
     
  4. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    This is the reason I dread getting relegated. I hate playing them, I've never once looked forward to it and far too often it was a painful experience. Plus their ground is about the worst in the football league and you don't even get the whole end anymore
     
  5. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    It's impressive how quickly you've appeared and managed to earn your position as both most pompous and ridiculous poster on this forum, given some of the competition you're up against.

    Firstly, censoring other poster's speech to that extent is quite an odd thing to attempt to insist on, considering how important 'speaking for yourself' apparently is to you, and secondly the world and his wife understand what the usage and meaning of an expression like 'we all know' is, and it isn't something that you're literally bound by; don't worry, it won't bewitch you into believing it if you don't.
     
  6. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    OK. There is no need to apologise for anything. But your post last night did annoy me. My response was maybe a bit hard hitting but when the 'sun goes over the yard-arm' I guess that's my style. I had no wish to upset you and, if I did, I apologise in kind.

    No-one, least of all me, is questioning your allegiance. Your 'allegiance' is patently obvious. But you've 'got hold of the wrong end of the stick' entirely re. 'what is the point of you'. That was suggested in the context of 'what is the point of you continuing to trot out endless platitudes' around our current predicament and subscribing to a number of 'urban myths' that have developed around that. That was all. So I hope that's now clear.

    Here is some news though. We will never be an 'established PL club' and nor should we expect to be. We're way too small for that so welcome to that reality check. In the last four seasons of a good first half followed by a relatively poor second half you might have been convinced otherwise. But we've yet to finish top half although that's a reasonable aspiration. So, over four seasons, we've finished between 11th and 17th. Therefore every season for us will begin with a battle to accumulate enough points to not finish 18th or lower followed by the aspiration to finish a bit higher up the table.

    The reality is that we'll always be a middling club which sometimes 'fights above its weight'. As currently under a very savvy owner. That could all change at anytime. Sorry to bring you down to earth.

    Here is my analysis of the current PL:

    - top six - we know who they are

    - other 'established clubs'? Well I'd say Everton (been there for ever) and Leicester ('established' for one year less than us but went on to win the whole damn thing two years later), have the legacy of their superb Thai owner and a much bigger stadium and fanbase than us

    - other clubs that are bigger than us? Well, in order of 'bigness' surrounding their history, immediate fanbase, wider fanbase and stadium size I'd suggest they are:

    1= Newcastle
    1= Villa
    1= Hammers
    4= Wolves
    4= Saints

    That leaves seven. I'd suggest we have another five in roughly the same boat as ourselves and one other even smaller minnow:

    - Roughly the same. Brighton, Palace, Norwich, Sheff. Utd, Burnley

    - Smallest of minnows - Muff. Rightly feted i.m.h.o. for having the longest serving (English) manager in the PL, a policy of hiring largely 'home grown' players and playing expansive 'proper' football.

    So that is the pool in which we swim. And, seeing as there are three to be relegated each season then every so often we are bound to flirt with it. Blaming Gino Pozzo entirely for this inevitability (although I'd agree that he is to blame for a recruitment policy which relies too heavily on treating players as 'commodities') is grossly unfair given the place we are now and where we were when he arrived.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  7. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Reservist

    I’d argue Brighton, Palace, Norwich and Sheff. Utd all have a bigger fan base than us.
     
  8. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Ha! Well don't hold back! Yep, I reckon that 'the whole world and his wife' do indeed know what an expression like 'what we all know' means. It's a lazy suggestion that there's a starting base upon which everyone is agreed. This is presented as fact which it often isn't. Often it's simply an 'urban myth' or in our current predicament rather a whole series of them. Here are four of the current 'urban myths' surrounding us which are based on nil evidence but would appear to have achieved 'what we all know' status:

    - the players don't care, aren't trying and aren't bothered about 'turning up and putting in a shift'

    - we weren't properly prepared in pre-season

    - a result of this lack of preparation was our poor start against Brighton. Rather than simply a 'bad day at the office' for other reasons

    - a further result of this lack of preparation is the current spate of niggling muscle injuries we're suffering. This last 'what we all knowism' is patently ridiculous. How can this spate of injuries be blamed on what happened two to five months ago? Whatever did or didn't happen then is ancient history now. All the players' fitness should be up to speed by now. Unless of course there's something generic going on since Quique's arrival which roughly coincides with the start of the injury spate. So that, for me, is far more likely. But somebody suggests blaming pre-season and it becomes a reality and urban myth and something we're all expected to know.

    This sort of thing (turning blind speculation into fact) happens all the time on social media once any sort of b.llocks idea gains a bit of traction.

    So I'm calling it out. OK with you?
     
  9. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Reservist

    @CleyHorn Thank you for the post, sorry I get quite sensitive at times. It was an interesting read and you make some valid points regarding our place in the footballing pyramid.

    I just want the best for the club, as I am sure deep down we all do. It hurts too see the club where it is in the table, I just hope the lads can get us out if it.
     
  10. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    In that case, if none of those things have in fact played any part at all in what has happened up to this point, could you enlighten us with what exactly those 'other reasons' for the 'bad day at the office' we suffered against Brighton, and also the 'bad days at the office' that we've suffered against every other team we've played this season, are, in your opinion?
     
  11. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    My bad. Leicester have of course been 'established' for one year more than us.
     
  12. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    OK. Here are what I think are valid reasons:

    1. Generic. Gino Pozzo's recruitment policy regarding treating players as only 'commodities' in his business model rather than looking more towards what's actually needed for the first team squad as well. In particular, his concentration on recruiting attacking and midfield players (because he's more likely to turn a profit on them) and neglecting the need for defensive quality as well. There is nothing wrong with the business model (it's essential) but it shouldn't be to the exclusion of first team squad necessities. In addition we seem to have recruited a whole lot of potential young first team talent which is then loaned out never to be seen again. Lukebakio is a prime example. Plays for us once, is loaned out, scores a hat-trick v Bayern Munich (the only club hat-trick that Manuel Neuer has ever conceded), sold.

    This recruitment policy is nothing new under Gino Pozzo. It isn't something that's just happened in the last couple of years. It's been the policy throughout the entirety of his ownership of our club. And now some chickens may be coming home to roost.

    2. Brighton. There is no evidence we were physically poorly prepared. A poor mental attitude though maybe. Thinking we just had to turn up to win. There is no evidence that, if that existed, it was down to the coaching staff though. Rather that our team had somehow got it into their heads that they simply had to show up to win because they'd achieved an easy victory in exactly the same first fixture last season

    - the VAR denial of an obvious penalty at 0-1

    - the start of our obvious defensive frailty. See 1 above.

    3. The obvious continuation of defensive frailty until Quique sorted it with three CBs.

    4. Appalling treatment with VAR decisions particularly against Newcastle and Spurs. Blatantly wrong decisions directly cost us four points there. That immediately turns five points into nine points. A bit shabby but not disastrous. In addition, we could easily have got a pen. against Everton as well. Ten points.

    5. An inability to convert simple chances. Hughes v West Ham, Doucoure v Arsenal, most notably three v Sheffield United and an inability to capitalise on a number of very promising attacking positions v Spurs.

    Taking 4 and 5 above into account the measure of how good/bad we've really been this season should be set against something between nine and fourteen points rather than five.

    I'm not sure what your 'bad days at the office that we've suffered against every other team we've played this season' means. We've played poorly in some matches and had a whole lot of bad luck/poor finishing too. See 4 and 5 above. But if you're suggesting that we've played poorly in every match then you're asking me a conditional question that assumes an initial premise with which I disagree. I'd suggest that we didn't play badly at all v Everton, Arsenal, Sheff Utd and Spurs. We only got three points there. We deserved to have got at least ten.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
    Happy bunny likes this.
  13. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I think it's fair to say we haven't had the rub of the green but that happens to teams that are struggling and I also believe that you create your own luck. I do believe we were under prepared for the start of the season, both physically (hence the niggling muscle injuries we are picking up) and mentally. The only VAR decision that for me has been dreadful was the non penalty at Spurs. That was a clear error that should have been changed, some of the others we should probably get but they are not clear errors.
    I do believe we should have more points from our performances but very rarely do you get games where you couldn't argue that if something different had happened then the result could have been different. In fact probably only City were we never in with a chance of getting anything from the game. We weren't bad at Everton but didn't create a whole lot and they certainly had the better of the chances. Brighton we could possibly had a penalty but were generally poor. West Ham we had Hughes chance to put us 2-1 up but defended like school boys in the playground. I would say the only games we deserved to win were Arsenal, Sheffield United and Spurs but you have to take the chances given to you and didn't. In my view we should probably have about another 4 points. God we need a win tonight
     
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  14. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Well the Newcastle equaliser should absolutely have been disallowed for handball. Two very similar 'goals' had already been disallowed by VAR previously for Man. City and Wolves. So plus Spurs that's four points which isn't so much to do with luck as daylight robbery.

    Nine points would currently put us in 18th above Saints and Norwich. And that's where we should be.
     
  15. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Reservist

    I do agree with this. The Newcastle goal not being disallowed was a bad mistake because it's not one which is a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact that it hit the arm. However we should also remember that penalties being awarded are not goals; they still have to be scored.
    To me the overriding reason why we are bottom is that we have not put away our chances.
     
  16. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Called it ya negative fannys
     
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin likes this.
  17. Supertommymooney

    Supertommymooney Reservist

    Southampton
    Norwich

    And maybe one other sliding back down... Palace?

    Might possibly be worse than us if we improve from here on...
     
  18. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    West Ham if they keep having to play that goalie !
     
  19. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    So we now have two trailing in our wake and the job now is to keep them there and play catch-up on those just above us - a little gap.

    This is the latest in the series of 'stating the blindingly obvious' posts on these forums.
     
    folkestone orn likes this.
  20. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Reservist

    There is usually a team that gets dragged from apparent safety, it could be any from about 10 teams.
     
    Supertommymooney likes this.
  21. Maninblack

    Maninblack Reservist

    As we did win on Friday, this should also be in contention:
     
  22. Sahorn

    Sahorn Reservist

    Congrats.
    And I called a Gray goal. (Shoutbox).
    Don't call me a negative fanny.
     
  23. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Congrats. We're wasted on here.
     
  24. Sahorn

    Sahorn Reservist

    At last, after all this time, I agree with you 100% :)
     
  25. Supertommymooney

    Supertommymooney Reservist

    Y
    Yeah, but what have they achieved in that time, eh?
     
  26. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    True, but nevertheless they're the nearest to us in fanbase terms. Arsenal closing one side of Highbury while they expanded the ground, people being priced out of Spurs and Arsenal and the building of the M25 might have helped us, but didn't.
     
  27. Good news today, Aston Villa lost, which means we are just 3 points off the magical 17th survival spot, well realistically 4 points with our current GD, but that can be made up over the season.

    COME ON U 'ORNNNNNNNNS
     

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