Gracia Out

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by GoingDown, Apr 7, 2018.

  1. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk Squad Player

    Maybe because we were discussing the squad?
     
  2. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Reservist

    Not sure why there is another thread on this, but anyway whilst I'm not really laying into Gracia, it does concern me that in all of the last three games we've dropped points thanks to opposition subs.

    In mitigation we've been playing against three of the better managers in this league who are known for turning games round with astute tactical substitutions, but surely we must be smart enough to observe these changes and react accordingly without drastically changing the way we've been playing? Is it the fault of the players, the manager, or both? Why is it we so rarely seem to be able to put on match winning/drawing substitutions, whatever the manager?
     
  3. wingco

    wingco First Year Pro

    Been said many times, but I really can't understand why somebody with a reputation for playing 4-4-2 is so dead against using it.

    Gray and Deeney up front to me seems like an obvious solution. We're hopeless at playing out from the back, so why not give the defenders two players to aim for rather than one?

    Pereyra for me has been a total passenger since his injury, but yet week after week he's shoehorned into the side instead of giving Deeney support. Why not just play a quite balanced midfield in Femenia, Doucoure, Capoue and Hughes?
     
    WillisWasTheWorst likes this.
  4. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I think that's unfair on Pereyra. He's looked much better in recent games - atrocious first half on Saturday aside - and two goals doesn't exactly support your view that he's a passenger. I've also seen him put plenty of defensive work in during that time too. It's no surprise that he's starting to look more like where we'd want him to be once we've given him the time to play regularly.
     
  5. wingco

    wingco First Year Pro

    He's not doing enough for me. He's a talent, but he's spent his whole career playing in a variety of different positions without anyone really knowing where his best position is. I certainly don't feel he's a left winger, but Javi's thinking is that instead of picking one of either Pereyra or Hughes, he picks both. I understand wanting creativity in the side, but its pointless when your only target is Deeney
     
  6. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    I would take that 11 over our current starting 11 (even the 10 you've listed inc 2 x Perez - you missed Gayle and Dummett:)). Why do you think our players are better ?
     
  7. Squibba

    Squibba Predictor Choker 14/15

    Dwight Gayle is crap. Ayoze Perez is crap. Gray and Gayle are similar players. What’s hurting us is injuries and poor tactics as Benitez is a good manager.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    folkestone orn and Bwood_Horn like this.
  8. kenbolka

    kenbolka Academy Graduate

    I think if we are to get rid of Gracia in summer, I hope that the Pozzo's go about their business the same way they did after Mazzarri. By making our intentions clear that WM would not be the Head Coach for the 17/18 season we were able to quickly snap up a highly wanted manager in Silva. I remember being so surprised that we were actually able to get him, considering the list of teams that were linked with him. If we stall with it and either wait until early next season or half way through summer I imagine the choice of managers would be lesser and we'll end up with another short-term solution.
     
    Jossy, Ágætis Byrjun and Malteser like this.
  9. Jossy

    Jossy Reservist

    There's not a great deal of difference between the Newcastle side who beat Arsenal yesterday and the one we demolished 0-3.

    Here's the line-ups and used subs (those in red featured in both fixtures)
    (stats from 11v11.com)

    v Arsenal v Watford

    Dúbravka Elliot
    Dummett Lejeune
    Lascelles Manquillo
    Lejeune Yedlin
    Yedlin
    Clark
    Kenedy Murphy
    Ritchie
    Ritchie
    Shelvey Shelvey
    Diamé Diamé

    Gayle Gayle
    Pérez Joselu


    Subs:

    Slimani Mitrović
    Joselu Pérez
    Murphy
    Merino

    Clearly it's mainly the defence that has changed, plus of course the positives that Kenedy has brought to their team (if only we could have got him......................:eek:)

    I'd put their improvement down to the brilliance of Benitez and an upgraded defensive unit (remember how Zeegelaar tore them apart down their right hand side?)

    If we could upgrade our defence and find a coach who could get the best out of our attacking players, I'd back us to beat them again. But under the current guise of our side (same or arguably worse defence, plus a seemingly blunted, attacking style/tactics), I fully expect the Geordies to roll us over. And should they do so - IMO - it won't be because they have better players in each position (some are, some aren't).
     
  10. I Blame Bassett

    I Blame Bassett Squad Player

    Kenedy seems to have been a catalyst for them,and ,as many have said,Benitez is a tip top coach.
     
    Malteser likes this.
  11. cfdr0ftaW

    cfdr0ftaW Academy Graduate

    One of the things Gracia has got right is playing Hughes in his proper position. Switching him to left wing, just so we can play two upfront, would be the very definition of shoehorning.
     
  12. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    SO what happened when he was with us - just didn't suit Walter's style/tactics/formation etc.
     
  13. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason The One and Only

    It's a real shame about Kabouls injury problems as he would be a sure fire starter if he was injury free and an ideal candidate as our new captain, but alas I fear his injury problems will win out and he will be leaving us sooner rather than later :(
     
  14. El distraído

    El distraído Johnny Foreigner

    The problem is twofold IMO.

    1. Gino Pozzo just isn't very good at choosing managers. It's actually criminal that he hasn't hired someone better than him to source the right managers. Sick and tired of our managerial merry go round as a consequence.

    2. Many of the current squad just aren't up to it, either by not being physically good enough at football, or lacking the bottle for a fight when their backs are against the wall.

    Correct these two problems this summer and we're sorted. Continue to balls them up like we have done for the past few years and I fear that next season may be our last in the PL for a while
     
  15. Carpster

    Carpster Reservist

    Well the start of the season proves you wrong on both counts. Sorry but until the Everton saga Silva had us playing with passion and a swagger. Yes we've lost a few to injury, but it's the same squad of players.
    What did annoy me though, was once Gino knew Silva had his head turned, he should of cashed in. A player who doesn't want to be at the club is one thing, but the head coach. The dressing room was gone then.
     
  16. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    I think the Silva saga and we know Pozzo could have cashed in and had Gracia in London Conley before Silva had got to the M6, is cultural. In that he sees a reputation of not being forced to do a deal, is in the long run the best way to get what you want. Especially as the money is in player trading at all his clubs to date.
     
  17. Newcastle aren't a more talented side than us, Benitez doesn't want half those players, do you recall the hoohar last summer when he wanted funds to build a premier league team.

    What they are is motivated, well managed, well led, play to their strengths, and put square pegs in square holes. All the things we're not.
     
    Unhappy bunny likes this.
  18. Burnsy

    Burnsy Reservist

    How does that work? The manager doesn’t want half of them, they know it, yet they are still well managed and motivated?
     
  19. Possibly has something to do with footballers being as thick as 2 short planks?
     
  20. wingco

    wingco First Year Pro

    Motivation doesn't always come in the form of praise. When somebody as good as Benitez says he wants to replace you, then for certain players that probably makes them get their act together. Mourinho has been using the same tactic for years
     
  21. Burnsy

    Burnsy Reservist

    Not disagreeing with that. I could certainly see a couple doing that but not as many as being suggested.

    I'd say it has more to do with them playing for the fans as they care about their reactions up there. Whereas a lot of our players couldn't give us a toss.
     
  22. reids

    reids Squad Player

    I'd actually say quite the opposite. There haven't been many managers under the Pozzo reign that I haven't been impressed with (I think Sannino is probably the worst).

    Zola = A decent enough hire, very close to nabbing us promotion.
    Sannino = Imo the worst (with WM) hire out the lot so far.
    Oscar Garcia = Had good pedigree and we started off ok under him - I was excited to see what he'd do with our squad.
    Slav = A fantastic hire imo and one that came from nowhere. A pleasant surprise.
    QSF = Style of football was bad, but he did the job he was bought in to do = keep us up, which he did very well.
    WM = Again the style of football was bad and we were butchered by injuries, but he still performed ok. A bad hire.
    Sssilva = Style of football was good, but obviously things turned to **** when Everton came in. What could have been..
    JG = Came in to steady the ship which he has done to an extent. I don't think he's the long-term solution we're after, but he's done what was required of him.

    Each time Gino has had to find a new manager requiring different capabilities and he has done, obviously there's a lot of crazy aspects that most clubs haven't had to deal with (like the Oscar Garcia and Silva sagas), but each time I'd say Gino has managed to hire the right man for the job at the right time.
     
  23. RMT79

    RMT79 Academy Graduate

    So if we sack Garcia - who should we realistically go for as a replacement? The fella from Benfica apparently is leaving Rui Vitoria ? Van bronckhorst ? Andre villas boas ? Lucien Favre ??
     
  24. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    Right, but doing the job asked of them and style need not be incompatible, need they? So in that sense QSF was only partially a good hire. Obviously Gino thought that too, otherwise he wouldn’t have binned him.

    Unless he thought that someone else was needed “to take us to the next level” (dreadful phrase). And if that is so, I think you are too charitable to WM and I would suggest that he was not the right man for the right job at the right time.
     
  25. easthertshornet

    easthertshornet Reservist

    Surely you're joking. Apart from Jokanovic the rest can be summed up in one word-mediocrity
     
  26. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    What strikes me is the pattern these coaches seem to have. There is one noticeable exception to the rule, but what seems to happen is a new coach comes in and our form hits a dramatic high going on runs averaging 2 points per game, then disaster strikes and we go on runs of well under 1 point per game averages.

    Zola had a good first season. He's the only coach that's maintained good form throughout an entire campaign. Where it went wrong for him was in the following season. Watford's form plummeted and he resigned. When then had Sannino, who improved the defence, which is something he had to do, form improved then nosedived again in the final few matches. I was surprised he wasn't replaced at the end of that particular season, but he only lasted a handful of games before it become obvious he was not going to lead us to promotion after a poor start.

    We then had a bit of a flurry. Garcia and McKinley came and went in a blink of an eye before Slav was appointed. Now he's the exception I mentioned earlier. He actually started off poorly before...bang.....we went on an incredible run which lasted the entire season. For whatever reason a compromise could not be found on contract negotiations and he was let go. I think that was a big mistake.

    Now in our first season back in the Premier league and QSF was appointed. He did a brilliant job for half a season, which basically ensured we'd stay up by Christmas. Then the wheels came off, and we ended the season in a nosedive.

    No surprise he was released and a new guy appointed. Mazzari was a really bad fit for the club, but even he made a very good start. We reached a high by beating United 3-1, then once again we entered a steady decline which ended in a complete collapse of form.

    So, we went for a promising young coach in Silva. Again, a brilliant start to the campaign, picking up 21 points from the first 13 matches. Since then we've only picked up 16 from the next 21 games.

    Out went Silva and in came Gracia. Once more there was a bounce in form. We picked up 10 points from his first 6 games, but then all the same signs started to happen. Only 1 point from the next 5. Gracia's good form has lasted shorter than his predecessors.

    So you can see, with varying degrees, each coach has started off with good form, but then we've completely collapsed under all of them. Only Joka ended on a high.
     
  27. reids

    reids Squad Player

    I agree that this is the main problem. I don't think that is the managers fault, nor perhaps Gino's, and I'm not really sure how we'd go about fixing it either, it's all a bit strange.
     
  28. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    An italian I've never heard of, with decent hair and a sharp suit for me.
     
  29. Burnsy

    Burnsy Reservist

    I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the way to at least start changing this culture is to hire a manager for more than one season. And for that manager not to have a CV that is full of clubs that he has left after one season. I feel sorry for Gino as I genuinely think he believed we'd get 2 years out of Silva but it was taken out of his hands.
     
  30. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Silva would only be with us for one season, we all knew that. Success and he was off. Lack of success and he would be out of the door. We were always a stepping stone.
    I would be surprised if we have a coach for longer than a season for the same reason.
     
    wingco likes this.
  31. Sting

    Sting Squad Player

    It is all very well to hire a manager intending to keep them for more than one season - I suspect QSF, WM and MS were all hired on that expectation. However if you then believe the manager has lost it then do you keep him and watch us be relegated?

    Unfortunately our players know they are immune. It will be the manager who gets the bullet. We have to get rid of the toxic players and only keep ones who will give their all for the club.
     
    El distraído and wfcmoog like this.
  32. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    And what if he was moderately successful, 11th place and 47 points, say?

    I don’t think “we all knew” he would only be with us for one season at all.
     
  33. Sting

    Sting Squad Player

    Agree. I hoped he would help us build on the last two years and maybe get us to around 50 points. That would have gained him some respect and attention but possibly not led to him being head hunted so early. We could have then had another season with him.
     
  34. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Reservist

    Preferably with broken English.
     
  35. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    The only problem with that is it'd leave us with a squad of zero players.
     
    Sting likes this.

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