Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by Cthulhu, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Keyboard Warrior Staff Member

    I had an email from our equalities lead today.
    After his sign off he put (he/his)

    these I take it are his “pronouns”

    now to take that apart:
    1. If he wants to be a “he” then we can assume that we use “his” so to our both seems like a tautology - used to make a point?
    2. You can’t say that easily in speech can you? My name is John Blogs, I want people to use the pronoun he.
    3. Could we not just go back to Mr / Mrs/ Miss /Ms and anyone else who is in a very small minority let’s it be known to people they indeed to interact with for any length of time that they want to be called whatever else? And they don’t fake outrage if someone gets it wrong
    4. You can usually tell the look of the kind of person this will upset so you just be a extra bit careful and don’t use a pronoun or he / she student age dressing androgenously or a skinhead woman
  2. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    I'd reply congratulating him on his successful transition and ask for his personal mobile number, for a friend.

    If you can do this from a colleagues computer even better.

    * do not do this
  3. Our technology solution allows users to register individuals as male or female. We are coming under increasing pressure to allow other genders eg male=>female, female=>male, and various other more obscure options. I was told yeterday there are apparently 13 genders recognised by some god-forsaken pressure group. This will require a major technology re-write .....FFS ....!!
  4. Maninblack

    Maninblack Reservist

    Only 13....?

  5. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Keyboard Warrior Staff Member

    The thing is most people are male or female like over 99% of the population are either male or female. I think I saw the figure 99.6% are male or female. The others identify as non-binary.
    Isnt it better to just call the other 0.4% non-binary in general and then they can describe in more detail to people they feel comfortable doing this with

    Even the above diagram appears to be confusing the notion of gender and sex?
  6. Yes but what about pleople like me who have both male and female reproductive organs and capability ?
    You sexist pig.
  7. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Keyboard Warrior Staff Member

    But that is more of a sex thing than gender if you are intersex or similar.
  8. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    Does it actually need to have the gender logged? Just register them as a person. Take the gender classification out completely.

    Unless you're in an industry making pants that need space for a **** or not, gender is pretty irrelevant.
    WillisWasTheWorst likes this.
  9. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    The bit I find strange is how so many transgender people feel the urge to tell everyone around them that they're transgender.

    If you're now male then why wouldn't you just say "male" and be done with it? Isn't that the entire point of transitioning? Saying "I'm a trans woman" is essentially akin to declaring you're not a woman, or the "trans" prefix is redundant. Seems entirely self destructive to me.

    The constant need to set self apart just strikes me as odd. The surest way to ensure people treat you differently is to describe yourself differently and deliberately set yourself apart.
  10. Can't really say what industry we are in but our customers do need to capture individuals' gender. It affect millions and millions of people's entitlements.
    hornmeister likes this.
  11. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    "Trans women are women"

    "If a trans woman has a penis, it is a female penis"
  12. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Just remember: it’s not gay if it’s a female penis.
    The undeniable truth likes this.
  13. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Cthulhu likes this.
  14. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

  15. Maninblack

    Maninblack Reservist

    I think it comes from society's move towards being indifferent about difference, if you get my drift. All those who have had to keep quiet about their sexuality for example, for fear of ridicule and violence, are finding it's less dangerous to come out these days because (much of) society is broadly indifferent to what sexuality someone is. More recently, those who feel they've had to keep quiet about not conforming to a binary understanding of gender are now making their claim for acceptance - or even indifference! And rightly so imo, no-one should have to hide who they are and most do so without making a fuss. There's always a small proportion in any group who want to flaunt who/what they are - and I appreciate that 'flaunt' is a subjectively loaded word! For example, within a population who might classify themselves as 100% male there will be some who want everyone else to know about it. Macho posers asserting their maleness irritate us as much as those who might go on & on about their veganism and those who might go on & on about their trans status.

    Next, tie all that in with the pressures of social media that demands you make public everything about yourself. Remember the days of secret diaries with locks on them hiding peoples' innermost thoughts? Now many people want to share them with their hundreds of virtual 'friends'! I must admit I particularly dislike couples who post lovey-dovey messages to each other on Facebook for all their friends to see. Pass the sick bucket!

    Also I wonder if a transgender person might feel they are always transitioning in some way and they don't ever reach a full sense of maleness or femaleness that conforms to the binary model, if that's what they are ultimately aiming for of course. They may have, for example, had surgery to remove/add various bits & pieces, but it may be that's only part of a journey to who they are in relation to the rest of society.

    Lastly, turn these surveys (or whatever) on their heads a little bit. If as a male, I had to classify my gender according to a choice from a list and the option of ticking 'male' was missing, I'd feel ostracised in some way and wouldn't happily accept just ticking a box that said 'other'.

    Fascinating yet complex and confusing topic!
    Arakel and Cthulhu like this.
  16. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    Entitlements should be the same imho regardless of gender. As soon as someone is an adult they're an adult and should be entitled to everything any other adult is entitled to unless there's some sort of physical requirement.

    If you currently make a binary decision based on Gender than change the gender box to a entitled yes/no. Mailings go to dear firstname etc.

    I'd like to take gender off our database becasue I can't be arsed to type an extra field in but I can't do that until pension entitlements harmonised.

    edit: actually thinking about it I could have a retirement age box, that would solve the issue, not that we've had an issue with this yet.
  17. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Reservist

    The problem with scrapping the databases and removing it would mean thousands of databases would need to be updated and I really do not think many companies would be willing to shell out £'s for a software engineer to remove a few lines of code.

    To company's credit, most online applications view the gender tick box as optional, which in this day and age I agree with. Not everybody likes being labelled as A. B or C, that is a step in the right direction. In regards to the Mr/Mrs thing. it's seen as a title really, and in all honesty, there are two different people under one name, take myself for example.
    I'm known "legally" as Mrs Rose, but I am also Skyla "the human being". It sounds stupid I know, but it proves the 'title' at the beginning of a name is just for paper work. A form letter could just as easily say "FAO: Fred Bloggs", and you wouldn't care or need to know if he was Mr, Sir or Dr. It's purely government paperwork.

    Just my two cents.
    hornmeister likes this.
  18. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    The trouble with "optional" is that businesses and government departments have diversity targets, and "optional" skews the data.

    Why don't people just select whatever comes closest? Anybody worrying about it probably has too big a sense of their own importance.
    SkylaRose likes this.
  19. Without saying who we are or what we do, do you think it's right then that I as a man should be paid maternity pay, qualify for free of charge HRT, qualify for a free mamogram (is that how they spell it ?). Maybe not for a football forum, but sometimes you need to know the sex of an individual on a database. It gets complicated when there are more than 10 genders, both to program (for us), and to assess individuals entitlements (for our customers using our technology)....
    wfcmoog and SkylaRose like this.
  20. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    Think I was fairly clear.
  21. skim read and missed that bit :)
    hornmeister likes this.
  22. Apparently there are over 100 gender types now.

    I watched about 45 seconds of Ru Paul's drag race 2 nights ago. Was enough time for me to know why I've never watched it before and why I'll never watch it again.

  23. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Reservist

    Looks like a bin @Filbert would put a load of Coventry shirts in. :p
  24. Filbert

    Filbert Leicester supporting bloke

    I think a bin full of Cov shirts is what’s known as a ‘club shop’ round those parts.
  25. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Haha, a right battle on GMB this morning between Piers Morgan and Lisa Nandy.

    Morgan asked Lisa Nandy if it is fair to women that elite male athletes should be able to announce that they are female, and then be allowed to enter against females in athletic events with or without a bit of hormone therapy. Nandy wouldn't answer and accused Morgan of pitting groups and groups, and attacking the transgender community.

    Morgan came across as his usual bolshey self, and Nandy will get the plaudits for having a go at him, but she really did not look good in her arguments. She merely attacked Morgan (and Susannah Reid was even supporting him) to try and deflect from her unwillingness to be honest.

    Nandy was my "favourite" Labour Leadership contender and always has been as she seemed more able than most to be straight talking and honest, but she has gone down in my estimations.
  26. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    wfcmoog and zztop like this.
  27. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    Wow, GMB really getting its teeth into the issues that are uppermost in the minds of the public this morning.
  28. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Why does anybody say anything about themselves? Why did many gay people feel the need to ‘come out’ in the 80s and 90s. Answer that and you have the answer.
  29. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Sporting examples are always ******** though. The utterly extreme circumstance. Are there really blokes queueing up to lose their tackle to smash it in the women’s game?
  30. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I am sure there are a few that do that, just like there were many over the years that took male hormone treatment to win womens athletic events in the past, and there is so much money available to the elite athletes there is a huge incentive. And, I'm not sure that the examples being raised now actually involve anybody losing their "tackle".

    But, regardless of the motives for any transition, it is still unfair to women athletes that have trained hard, devoted their lives to reach the top, to see it snatched away by someone was a male athlete a relative short time ago.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
    wfcmoog likes this.
  31. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    If someone has competed as an elite male athlete then they probably shouldn’t be able to compete as a woman, notwithstanding individual cases of intersex individuals etc.

    But really, the most important thing to ask Lisa Nandy? And why go off her simply for refusing to answer provocative questions? Your guy refused Andrew Neil and hid in a fridge FFS.
  32. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

  33. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    There were several subject raised during the interview, this one was raised right at the end, but because of Nandy's inability to answer, it went on and on. It was brought up because the last Labour politician to go on was Dawn Butler who proudly declared that babies were born "without sex". I think it is a legitimate subject to ask, a potential leader of the same party. You may disagree, as it is an awkward subject for Labour.

    I remind you that a short while ago, I was saying that gender same sex marriage etc, isn't the most important issue to most people when it comes to voting, and you criticised me for saying that! You need to sort yourself out! :D
  34. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Did I really? Hmm are you sure?

    Where did Dawn Butler say that?
  35. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I said,

    "Gender issues are not major issues for the majority of people. Most people are just not interested. They may have an opinion, but, that doesn't make it a big issue or important in their life until it gets forced upon them. That is where a Party goes wrong if they listen too much to Party members or activists".

    You said,

    "Lot's of people don't care about other people's issues. That doesn't mean those issues are not important. It may just mean that they have reached a critical mass to force themselves into public consciousness. I'll bet gay marriage wasn't important to 9/10ths of the population, but it was still worth the push, the pressure and the debate."

    So, you either accept that these issues are worth debating or you don't. You can't pick and choose depending on whether your labour people can answer a question or not.

    Re Dawn Butler...

    This article details what she said and where she said.

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