Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by Cthulhu, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    FFS ZZ I just said the fact that it isn’t the most important doesn’t mean it isn’t important to some. That’s no reason/justification for imbecilic Piers Morgan questions.

    What is it you are arguing? It isn’t important unless you can trip Lisa Nandy up? Christ on a bike.
  2. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Eh? It wasn't me arguing. Two weeks ago you said it was worth debating, today you said it isn't.

    You are arguing with yourself! :D
  3. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    GMB is about your level.
  4. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    And Lisa Nandy's, obviously.

    But not Boris's as he would rather appear in a fridge.
  5. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Bumped to share a youtube clip of the Lisa Nandy interview I mentioned yesterday.

    Actually, Piers Morgan was less objectionable than I had initially thought, he was actually quite calm.

    Hannah Bardell of the SNP took the same line as Lisa Nandy on GMB today. Completely ignored answering the question, again attacking Piers Morgan for asking the question.

    "Is it fair to women that a male can self identify as a woman and compete against women"

    Bardell, like Nandy are scared stiff to answer, trying to shut down the debate suggesting that it is anti-transgender to even ask the question.

    What a terrible state our society is in when we are not even allowed to talk about such issues.
    wfcmoog likes this.
  6. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Reservist

    Isn't this just politicians being politicians though? They all avoid answering controversial questions unless they have to, whatever colour rosette they wear.

    At the moment it is not a political decision. Initially it will be down to individual sports governing bodies. Whichever way they rule will, no doubt, be challenged in court by whichever side "loses".

    I'm sure whichever way the courts rule will also be challenged to the point where statutary legislation will be sought. That is when the politicians will have to choose a side, hopefully with a free vote.

    It's naive to expect politicians to answer the question now. And, with no legislation or election in the pipeline, there is no democratic reason why they should.

    It is all part of the media and political game of "trapping" the "other side" to make political gain.

    Personally, I would leave the decision to the individual governing bodies. Obviously in some sports physical prowess is more important than others so a blanket ruling across all sports wouldn't be appropriate imo.
    Bwood_Horn likes this.
  7. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Of course you can talk about it. Nandy was talking about it. She just doesn’t have the answer.

    I know you think you do, but all through history there have been people who believe they were born into the wrong gender. We are finding out this is a much higher number than previously believed. A number also have a genetic component, so insisting that they are the gender they grew up in is a little complex.

    The less prejudice people experience and the easier it will be for, say trans women, born men, to compete as men if that is their dominant physical type. Rules can be drawn, by a commission to look at genetics and maybe other factors to give a way to determine cases. But frankly **** sport. It really isn’t the important thing here.

    This may help.

    As for Morgan he hasn’t identified through his life with the flippant example he gives later as a penguin. What he has done is transgress on a regular basis. He should identify as a phone hacker, his fundamental phenotype.
  8. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Reservist

    Yes, exactly.

    There has to be acceptance on both sides.

    Everyone needs to accept that some people have been born into the wrong gender and they have a right to be identified as such.

    But those people do, to a degree, have to accept that they have been handed a ****** hand and things are never going to be perfect.

    I'm sure all but a very few transgender people will not have their lives negatively impacted if they are told they cannot compete in certain elite sports because the advantage the body they were born gives them.

    At the end of the day most of us cannot compete in elite sport because of the body we were born in to!
    Wexford-yellow and K9 Hornet like this.
  9. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    Gawd Bless the 'Net - someone uploaded it:
    Moose likes this.
  10. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I don't have much problem with politicians not answering a question, as Sydney says, they all do it, particularly when it exposes their own, or their Party's hypocrisy.

    My issue was that they tried to shut down the debate (as Moose did yesterday) by accusing Morgan of being anti-trans because he asked the difficult question. It just demonstrates how the liberal lefties have their view, and want to shut down anybody that questions it - there should be no debate, and if anybody wants to discuss the matter, then they must be "something"phobic.

    And I agree with last part of Sydney's post above. Contrary to Moose saying that I don't have an answer, I think that transgender people should absolutely have the right to take that option, but I do not think they should then be also able to compete in the elite sporting world in their new "gender". It is a regrettable but necessary restriction placed on them.

    And, as in so many similar issues, the leftie-liberal activists, by pressing for this and similar stretching of boundaries, do their cause more harm than good.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  11. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    You really are a poor lost soul who gets his politics from Piers Morgan.

    No one is saying any of that. It’s just you and Morgan’s attempt to coerce an answer (that you like) when we don’t have one is unhelpful and bullying.

    But that’s your politics. Happy to discriminate throughout against gay rights or women’s rights until someone sorts it for you and suddenly you are a fan.

    So here is the thing, read through the WHO article I linked to and then come back and tell me everyone has a gender that can be easily or definitively applied.
  12. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Listen back to the Lisa Nandy's interview, she made several ridiculous accusations against Morgan. And yesterday, you were quite open in your criticism of Morgan for asking the questions. You thought the debate should not have been heard.

    And you are doing exactly what I am complaining about. You are accusing me of being discriminatory because I think there is an issue in sport. I don't need to read that WHO article, although I have scanned it. I know what the gender is, and as I have said I have great sympathy with those who are struggling in these circumstances. But I do not believe that someone who has lived 20/30 years receiving all the male hormones that have created a stronger, taller body than most women, should be able to compete against women to the detriment of women that have trained all their life to reach where they are. Why dont you consider the rights of those women instead of only considering the rights of the minority? Find a non right-wing minority cause, and you'll be there backing it to the hilt and trying to shut down any debate.

    And, I usually do not agree with Morgan's politics, he is the ex editor of the Mirror, a remainer and anti Tory, I just happen to agree with him on this.
    The undeniable truth likes this.
  13. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Endless straw men. I have never said there shouldn't be a debate. It should be on reasonable terms that's all, not based around Morgan's prejudices that there is one answer and why won't you give it.

    But take the challenge. Read the WHO article rather than ignore it and tell me where everyone fits. You are a fair person. You will see there is a difficulty that simply calling out the Labour Party doesn't solve.

    The challenge is to build fair criteria that allow people to participate in all aspects of life, (not just weightlifting FFS) taking into account that life isn't as simple and is more fluid than we once thought it was. Eliminating prejudice is an important part of this. It simply doesn't help to have the underlying gist as look at these crazy and unreasonable people, don't let them ruin women's sport.
  14. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I don't need to read a massively long article on something that I don't have an issue on anyway.

    Why don't you take a challenge?

    Instead of implying and assuming that anyone who raises an issue as being worth debating, challenge yourself to accept that it doesn't mean that they are prejudiced, or discriminatory, but that it is actually you that is being prejudiced or discriminatory by thinking that in the first place.

    You may find that it helps you become less bitter, more open to decent debate, and more enriching for you in the long run.

    Then take a second challenge.

    See if you can accept that the quest for "equality" doesn't mean that you have to go for 100% equality across the board. That it is OK to accept that total equality is often not possible or practical or even sensible sometimes. Exceptions are quite often fair, logical and sensible.

    So when your missus, or mine, insists on a male gynaecologist, then she isn't necessarily being sexist, or anti male, she would just prefer a women to do the poking around. When a local council advertises for a black person to work with the local black community in some capacity, they again, are not necessarily trying to be racist, or anti-white. they probably just think that a black person would be better in that role. And if a sports governing body, such as in tennis, or athletics set up separate competitions for men and women with different rules, such as lower hurdles, or lower shots in the shotput, they are also not being sexist or anti equality. but are merely taking into account the different physicality of men and women to provide fairer competition, and when an onlooker sees that fairness being taken away, they just feel that sensible exceptions to the 100% equality culture are fine.

    Try it!
  15. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    You have a massive issue with transgender and clearly have plenty of time to read the World Health Organisation link. No doubt you read it and found it didn’t fit into your binary thinking. What on Earth those last two paras are all about Lord knows, but again straw men, things I never said nor implied.

    But it’s pointless debating with you when you are in this mood Dear. If you’re in a better mood when you come home I’ll cook you a nice dinner.
  16. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Failed the challenge, then, preferring to keep to your own bigotry.

    That's a shame.
  17. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    Straw people, please.
    Moose likes this.
  18. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Actually there's a big divide in the trans community. Look at Truscum vs Tucute if you're interested.

    The former are usually what we might have considered to be 'transsexuals.' People born in the wrong body who undertook transition to live as the sex they feel they are inside. The others are a complex mish mash of "trans-trenders," non-binaries, gender non conformist, gender fluids, gender queers and other non-defined stuff which usually requires a whole paragraph to define "how they identify and it is usually all they talk about.
  19. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    It's good to see that the arch-TERF J. K. Rowling has been posting highly inflammatory tweets:
    BBC report on the 'controversy'.
    wfcmoog likes this.
  20. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    This thread harks back to a golden age when @zztop and Piers Morgan were still friends.
  21. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Nah, not really, my only real comment about him was "Piers Morgan was less objectionable than I expected."
  22. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I've read paragraphs on this from both sides. It's ridiculous.

    The whole 'trans' issue really boils down to one thing, at it's core - the perception and definition of the word 'gender.'

    The whole argument of the TRA movement is that gender is completely ephemeral, optional and changeable. You can look like a man, dress like a man, have male genitals, act like a man and, to all intents and purposes, be a man, but if you define yourself as a woman, NB etc. then that is what you are.

    To most people, this makes no sense, because we consider gender to be related to sex. To me, the alternative definitions we are expected to accept are meaningless. If one can change their gender at will, then what is the point of it and why do we have to keep talking about it?
  23. I was a woman between 12.00 and 12.30 today but I'm back to being a man again now. And you should respect that.
    HappyHornet24 and Robert Peel like this.
  24. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    It's labelled as transphobic to argue that biological sex exists, but we cannot all practise double-think and deny that it doesn't.

    However, we also live in a society which acts like biological sex should dictate the way we dress, the name were called, the sport we play and the toys we play with, which is completely ludicrous. Gender is a social-construct. At times, men wear makeup, skirts and the colour pink. Sometimes, we have more than two genders. It entirely depends on which part of the world you live in and when.

    The world should be a place where anyone, irrespective of the genes they are born into, should be able to be whatever they like (within physical limits). The "rules" of gender are pointless and illogical. But simultaneously, as with non-trans people, the aim should be to push away from the concept of stereotypical male and female gender roles and cosmetic surgery to physically alter the physical reality, rather than vice-versa. As then you're dealing with the effects, whilst reinforcing the disease.
    Arakel and lm_wfc like this.
  25. lm_wfc

    lm_wfc Squad Player

    Saw something recently they made a good point:

    Adoptive parents will call themselves Mums and Dad's. But if you went around pointing it out they weren't biologically parents you'd be a ****.
  26. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Saw an interesting discussion this morning where two transgender women said that self identification had set back the cause by 10 years. I said much the same on here a while back and got called "transphobic" by a regular on here.
    wfcmoog likes this.
  27. You're transphobic.
    zztop likes this.
  28. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    ISTR reading one of an ex-girlfriend's books (she was a social anthropologist it was in her library) on "Group Theory" which is entirely different to the "Group Theory" I was studying (and struggling with) at the time. It was a bet to see how far we could read of each other's area - I managed to read her entire book she managed two paragraphs of the introduction in mine. From what I remember it said that gender was a cultural projection of sexuality which had very little to do with sex. TBF it was an extremely dull book written by a pseud which I only finished to spite the bitch.
    hornmeister likes this.
  29. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Quite so. It's odd that discourse has reached the point where we are arguing both for and against the existence of of gender roles, depending on the conversation.
    wfcmoog, Bwood_Horn and miked2006 like this.
  30. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    If that's the case how come he can see himself in the mirror to comb that excellent beard?
  31. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    This quote needs to go on your gravestone.
  32. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    New can of wokerms opened?

    This whole issue of kids transitioning in the US is something that I took no notice of, until on one Bill Maher's 'Real Time' shows a certain Dr Debra Soh turned up where it was mentioned that she had done (proper) research that looked at the outcomes of US kids who were not 'allowed' to transition because of cultural and legal reasons (religous views and or state law) and those who had that 'right' to undergo gender realignment. The vast majority of one group grew up to be, relatively, happy homosexual adults and the other, well let's just say that the majority didn't grew up to have healthy and fulfilling lives... She, of course, has been literally hounded out of her academic position for the temerity of publicising her data and facts.

    I only picked up on Soh's work because of a personal interest - ASD/GDD/LD children are a truly marginalised/stigmatised community and there is an extremely vociferous, yet small, number of parents who advocate having their children's puberty delayed (for some unknown reason very early puberty is not uncommon in our kids) by pharmaceutical intervention.
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020

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