Discussion in 'General Football & Other Sport' started by UEA_Hornet, Aug 2, 2019.
How much of your money did you donate? There is a justgiving page.
Please no more gurning Nevilles in my life.
It would have been a start so that Bury could get itself back on its feet and became more attractive to business people with real money and a proper plan (ie. no Bassini-types)
So it's a charitable donation of sorts then? Though presumably without the tax perks that accompany a real one. I actually think what you're proposing would be manna from heaven for crooks and disreputable businessmen. Drive a club into the ground by borrowing against it and then get a pay off at the end for your trouble. Nice work if you can get it.
The EFL seems as third rate as the FA.
The phrase EFL Chairmen does, somehow, conjure up a picture of home town chancers who got lucky. Shiny blazers with faux brass buttons. A mediocrity brought together by petty venality.
Such people aren’t fit to to govern themselves, the folks who gave themselves the right to unrelegate their peers who happened to finish bottom of the 4th.
I seem to have woken up as Clive.
Having said this, whilst it is desperately hard on the committed fans, aren’t people getting a little too sentimental?
A pub or a corner shop could be a centre of the local community but you don’t get MPs parading their concern when they fail.
I now appear to have morphed into Thatcher.
Sorry for assuming there are some business people out there with a genuine love for the game! The FA do need to tighten up their rules on who is right & proper to take on a football club. It may be idealistic but I still think ex-Prem multi-millionaires should do more and spend more, charitably, to help struggling clubs.
Surely an owner has got to at least know who or what they are taking over - the guy at Bury didn't even know they had a team and seemed to buy it as a favour for others.
I mean sure they don't need to be rabid football fans but have to at least take an interest because the game isn't like other business which are black and white.
You do hear of locals pooling resources to help their local pub or post office under threat. There have been a few EFL clubs that are fan-owed and well run. As for MPs, keep them away from all football clubs, pubs etc!
Why didnt Baz go for it?
There simply have to be rules that restrict the level of borrowing a club can take on and spending on wages/transfers to a % of income. Typically borrowing is taken on to fund wages and transfer fees. If you can't borrow to fund these then you don't overspend. If you will struggle to pay the wages due to a reduction in income, eg relegation, you have to sell players to raise funds and reduce wage bill, not reach out to the football equivalent of a payday lender. Bottom line safety net, if the club can't afford to pay wages, the owner loses the club, before massive debts are accumulated. That would focus the mind. We simply cannot allow incompetant owners to kill clubs. That could have been , and could one day still be, us.
All sensible stuff. Especially about the increasing dodgy lending clubs are engaging in. But it's the "the owner loses the club" bit where it falls down. I've heard it suggested by others too but can't see how would that happen?
Are we saying the EFL should refuse to recognise the owner as such? They would still legally be the owner. The EFL's sanctions are sporting (points deductions), financial (fines) or ultimately expulsion if people don't comply with their rules. None of which helps the club itself. The battle to get the Oystens out of Blackpool took years and eventually a High Court judge had to order it. And even then, that's only because there was someone with deep pockets who had a financial interest is ousting them. It wasn't done for the good of the game or out of kindness.
People have said the EFL should never have let Dale takeover Bury. But then the shrieking at the time would no doubt have been about how the EFL was leaving Bury stuck with their previous hated owner who had stopped funding them.
Keep unscrupulous MP’s away sure - but everyone linked to the attempts to get the club out of Steven Dale’s hands has said the local MP James Frith went above and beyond. Clearly seems like a decent politician.
As for your other suggestion about ex-players or whatever helping out - I can understand where you are coming from but I just don’t agree...
If Bovis Homes was going under, should a property magnate plunge his money in to save them because it’s the sector in which they’ve made their money? Of course not. It’s not players fault that they are paid the sums they are. And they have no moral duty to spend their own money to do so. There’s loads of opinions around that bigger clubs should have helped - but they are bound by very strict rules about doing so.
It just doesn’t get fixed because there’s plenty of money elsewhere in the game. It isn’t allowed to work like that.
The issues at Bury were present before Dale took over, However he did little to fix them and claimed to be the victim due to his poor DD. We need to fix them before they get to the edge of the precipice like that.
The FL control the competion. They set the rules. They simply say in order to play in our league, here are our rules. They can define what happens when a club is struggling. The key thing is that debt cannot be allowed to accumulate. The minute that starts, it's rectified or ....whatever the FL decide they want to happen. The owners don't like it....tough if they want to stay in the league. This is just off the top of my head but there must be safeguards they can insist on that stop a cavalier owner saddling a club with mountains of debt as part of an ego trip to progress up the leagues. They simply can't be allowed to do it.
He has very little defence indeed. But if you take the words of Andy Holt (Accrington owner) then he has seen the finances and was the person who put the potential buyers in contact with Dale - in fact, he went as far as giving those buyers access to Accrington's finances to see how it should be run and what they would be expecting if they could level things up at Bury.
Holt has openly said that Bury was like a tsunami of hidden debt. And every aspect of the club had a web of debt that kept spiralling when looked into. You are quite right that Dale should have been allowed nowhere near it as the EFL never asked for proof of reasonable funds. And its his fault that he didn't do Due Diligence. But Holt has said that Bury would have been in a far worse position without Dale and had he sold the club, it would have been left in a better position than when Dale purchased it. No one should have touched it. Make no mistake, Dale has not helped himself at any point and there are things that are very dubious about the guy. But he has lost money - millions it's claimed. And that's backed up by people who have seen the books. Its an uncomfortable truth that he's not the be-all-and-end-all bad guy in the story. The previous owner is far more culpable. Any FA enquiry should start with his involvement. Yet I see his name mentioned far less in the media than Steven Dale's.
I've never been involved in football finance but it must be a weird world to operate in. For the current season you pretty much know what your revenues will be (bar a cup run), what your costs are (salaries plus property related) and know what your starting financial position is. For year 2 of your plan you'd need a plan A, B & C. Plan A is "promotion", Plan B "status quo" and Plan C "relegation". Plan C is the most important one. You must be able to survive financially if your revenues drop. How long a contract do you offer players, are there relegation clauses etc. I worry for us after we are relegated. The drop in revenues but with players still on long term £100k/w contracts. Yes there's parachute monies but it must be oh so tempting to blow that on trying to get back up. The owners have to be so disciplined to accept that at a point in time we would become another Millwall/Preston/Brentford and cut our cloth accordingly.
This sort of guy should not be able to just buy a club for £1 and hope to make some money out of it. I doubt very much he has personally out any money into the club. Raised more more debt using the ground as security maybe, but I expect he will walk away from this experience at a personal cost of losing his £1, nothing more.
He has lost money. Maybe not millions and millions. But he has lost money and everyone close to the situation has said as much. He’s been involved with 51 businesses, 45 of which have been liquidated. I kid you not.
Some very very dodgy goings on. And these are just the matters that are public knowledge. One can only imagine the stuff we don’t know.
I don’t feel sorry for Steve Dale one bit. A parasite who should have been allowed nowhere near it. I just feel that he’s taking the brunt of the abuse when the meat and bones of the problems have been created by another person, Stewart Day. They’ve just been heightened by Dale taking over trying to make a cheap buck.
Surely sadly too late for Bury ?
That should adhere him to the fans!
Let him challenge the expulsion. Highly doubtful the decision was taken without watertight legal advice supporting it. And even if it goes to an independent tribunal, when does the case get heard? You'd have to think it'd take weeks rather than days.
Yes he specialises in buying failing businesses, getting some cash out, then closing them down. I seriously doubt he has lost any serious money.
Bury have been banging on the EFL's door today, asking to be let back in as a lovely man with magic beans has arrived to save them. Honest this time, guv. The EFL has denied ever knowing anyone called 'Bury' and slammed the door. They're very unhappy and apparently off to court.
The EFL would not pass a proper persons test themselves. They are inadequately monitoring club finances. They are not checking if individuals are genuinely interested in the clubs they are taking over either. There have been far too many chancers offering money and hope when it is all a tissue of lies. Steven Vaughan is another example. Look him up and it is incredible he was allowed in at a second club and then allowed to have contact with a third. All three clubs Chester, Barrow and Bangor City are or have been in dire straits as a result.
You may say it is sentimentality RD. I cannot imagine what would happen if Watford FC were in the same place and given our encounter with Bassini (thank heavens the Pozzo family stepped in) who knows. Especially for supporters going for decades. It is part of their lives and for many the only point of social contact in an increasingly fragmented world where online reality is more important than the real one. Not to mention the associated businesses that rely on the club when supporters from other clubs come to visit. Or the aspiring young footballers they have in their academy set up and the back room staff. The supporters are the people who once again suffer for the incompetence of others who should know better. My sympathies go out to the fans of the Shakers and indeed the Wanderers. Two clubs that have been allowed to run into the ground by mismanagement.
Some of the blame does lie with the clubs too. The advent of the Premier League has seen wage inflation down the pyramid. Footballers and their agents need to realize and clubs too that they will have to accept realistic wages. Either that or expect even fewer jobs available in a professional capacity.
Let’s be crystal clear though. The EFL is the clubs. So when you say the EFL is inadequately monitoring club finances, you’re really saying the clubs are inadequately monitoring club finances. No one should pretend to be shocked by that.
Journalists like David Conn have shone a decent spotlight on various aspects of the Bury and Bolton situations recently. But one takeaway seems to be for all the ‘f*ck the EFL’ song plans and abuse of Debbie Jevans doing the rounds on social media, the fact is the EFL board can propose whatever safeguards they like but if the clubs don’t approve them, they won’t happen. The other inescapable fact is legally anyone can form a company and buy a professional football club. The EFL cannot interfere in that process and, ultimately, if the new owner them doesn’t abide by its regulations the club itself (and therefore the fans and others relying on it) will be punished. That’s why Bury are where they are.