Anti-Semitism

I don't get it. Why is it even a thing? And I'm anti most things...

 

Because people who believe in fairies believe that Jews are nasty trolls who once nailed a bearded fairy to a piece of wood

 

There is a pretty obvious reason for the upturn in anti-semitism in the UK and more intensely mainland Europe in the last couple of decades....

As for historical anti-semitism, agreed it is a strange phenomenon that such a relatively small ethnic group receive such an inordinate amount of hatred. People will always try and link it to Israel in its modern form, yet as a phenomenon it has existed for 2,000 at least! I'd imagine in some respects Europe has traditionally been a Christian continent, and even subconsciously perhaps people have been raised with the story of Jesus being killed by 'The Jews' and internalised that distrust. Perhaps it permeates our culture in ways we don't fully even understand?

There is an article here with looks at some of the competing theories for its stubborn existence throughout history: http://ihr.org/other/anti-semitism-why-does-it-exist-dec-2013 but ultimately no one seems able to explain why this one form of bigotry above all others has remained part of our culture for so many generations

 

To give some slight (and possibly irrelevant), my mother's side of the family is Jewish, while my father's side is of non-religious British and German origin. I don't really define myself by any religion or ethnicity, rather as an individual - although I certainly recognise that I have inherited characteristics from both sides of my family. The following are merely my hypotheses based on my personal experiences and readings. I think given my background I am at least slightly qualified to give a moderately unbiased opinion.

Firstly, I think that to some extent that article you quote is correct in identifying Jews as a 'race'. This already makes it easier to understand why some prejudices persist. For Jews, as per all races, there exist positive and negative stereotypes, which, while obviously are biased and can never ever paintbrush a whole race, often do have at least some grounding in reality. With Jews, the most prominent stereotype of them is based around them being perhaps physically weaker than average, but mentally very shrewd and smart - thus they naturally find it relatively easy to rise to the top of domains where success is largely dependent on wit and intellect; the article you quote alludes to this when it says that "Jews have more influence and power in US political and cultural life than any other ethnic or religious group". I would say such comparisons are similar to the stereotype of Afro-Caribbeans being disproportionately successful and over-represented in the sporting world.

Then, as to the 'anti' part, naturally people are most 'anti' those which we see as being opposite to ourselves, or dominant in traits which we ourselves either lack or dislike. Thus, perhaps why anti-semitism in the western world often comes from those who are physically of above average strength, but perhaps of below average intelligence. There might at once be a hatred of the slightly dissimilar Jewish appearance, but an envy of their intelligence and success. For someone whose success in life is largely based on their physical dominance, it may be very difficult for them to empathise with such people and understand how it is possible rise to positions of influence merely through intelligence - the easiest way for them to rationalise this is to assume there must be some kind of sinister conspiracy at work, rather than it being a natural result of meritocracy in spheres of life which reward cognitive abilities over physical.

On the other hand, though less commonly, anti-semitism can also come people such as Hitler - who hate themselves and thus people similar to themselves.

Of course there is also the whole Israel-Palestine thing, which no doubt fuels anti-semitism in many circles for obvious reasons, but I'll skip past it a bit here as it isn't my area of expertise. Plus, I think that, as in the article you linked to, it is often over-represented as a reason given for anti-semitism; for most people on the street in a country such as the United Kingdom, I doubt their prejudices are really greatly shaped by a distant conflict which has such little influence on their day-to-day lives.

 

1. Conspiracy theories that Jews own all banks, run the media, have a disproportionate influence in politics etc. See Tyson Fury's recent rant
2. The majority of Jews in Europe are a fairly peaceful race when compared to others and are seen as a soft target
3. There are only 250k Jews in UK so if you don't live in London, Manchester and a few other regions it is highly likely that you have never met one so think they all look like a Hasdidic...most don't
4. There is always going to be those that hate those of another colour or religion but a small proportion of Jews and Muslims are raised to hate each other. This has been in the increase due to recent migration
5. Israel and the ongoing disputes in Gaza and West Bank (and Iran and Lebanon etc). It is used by those who don't fully understand the situation to fuel the hatred of Jews outside of the region (see France, Galloway et al). Many are not anti-Semitic because they disagree with Israeli policy but many are anti-Israel because they are anti-Semitic

 

Nothing to do with a persecution complex then?... I've been around and can't say I've noticed any real anti-semitism apart from the obvious Muslim hate thing.

I also think the shrewdness comparison from lowerrous is bordering on Nazi-ism if he really believes Jewish people are intellectually superior to other civilisations. What hogwash!

 

Ha! ... I just know you've been saving that one especially for me!

I'll just say up here on the wirral which is most predominately white Christian I've not heard a shred of anti-Semitism in the ten years I've lived here ... However hardly a week passes on the building sites without me hearing some racist remark regarding either blacks or asians.

But of course that won't suit your argument.

 

godfather - what would you put Tyson Furys recent tirade down to?

 

Any publicity is good publicity ... he's just an attention seeker

 

Of course it is...

 

It's so obvious he's on a wind up

 

“Everyone just do what you can, listen to the government follow everybody like sheep, be brainwashed by all the blacks, black people who own all the banks, all the papers all the TV stations. Be brainwashed by them all.”

Would you judge this quote as racist?

 

[video]Phttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IV8mJAm7WcQ[/video]

Is this anti-semitism?

Just interested Godfather in your version of what is and isn't

 

What he said was racist, you don't need to translate.

But it was also a bunch of popularist rhetoric that nobody really takes seriously (well not since the seventies when everyone seemed to be at it) ... I doubt TF even knows what a Zionist is.

 

That's a good point; it's related to what I was saying about Jews generally not being especially physically dominant (and by association, aggressive). This targeting can even be seen as operating at a sub-conscious level - as an example you look at how much crap Drake gets - his father was Afro-Caribbean and his mother was Jewish, and his Youtube comments are dominated with remarks about him being the softest/wimpiest "black" dude there is.

Persecution complex? Following on from the point Halfwayline and I were both making, Jews are relatively peaceful and often seen as easy targets - this has been proven time and again throughout history and in different societies - Jews are instinctively aware of their relative vulnerability and thus it makes sense for them to adopt a vigilant, defensive and cautious stance; it's not a "complex".

Nazi propaganda wasn't "persecute Jews because they're intellectually superior" - rather they put a negative spin on this stereotype by portraying them as money-grabbing rats.

Furthermore, it isn't "hogwash", there is pretty clear evidence:

http://www.aei.org/publication/the-2011-nobel-prize-and-the-debate-over-jewish-iq/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence

 

Racism at a pro Palestine rally, expected and hardly endemic now is it?

 

How much of this has to do with upbringing and schooling and opportunity? ... I'll wager everything.

My little bro Mensa tested aged 11 scored 160+ (the highest possible) ... died aged 29 a penniless drug addict musician.

 

Unfortunately Godfather I fear that, as you have not witnessed anything directly yourself, your belief is that it's not there. However I struggle with your reaction to Tyson Fury that he's on a wind up and attention seeking but your tone changes to he's racist when black is substituted for Jew

 

I never said it wasn't racist just that it is not typical of what people think. Somehow I don't quite see a Reichskristallnacht ever happening here.

 

Firstly, with regards to the opportunity part, did you not read this bit?

Also, I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your little bro, but there have also been their fair share of incredibly gifted Jewish artists dying young from drug addiction - I've no idea of their IQs, but Armedeo Modigliani and Amy Winehouse are two which immediately spring to my mind.

As a side-note, I am currently a 29 year-old, penniless, drug-consuming (though not as yet addicted, I think) musician, who has been labelled "intellectually gifted" at various points in time (though never tested)... maybe I should go a bit easy this year :-\

 

You say this, and yet 20 years ago if I told you that Jewish schools and synagogues in France would need to be surrounded by barbed wire and soldiers with machine guns you'd have scoffed at that as well

 

No not so much which schools but the (parent induced) ethos to study. I had a Jewish friend at junior school, he never went out but instead had to study the bible every night while I'd be in the park playing football with my other mates.

As for opportunity .... just like other minorities anywhere Jews tend to look after their own, I'll use London's lucrative print industry as an example, I'm sure things are different now but at one time it was a closed shop.

 

It's not comparable .... Hitler charged a whole nation against the Jews, in France it's only hardcore Muslims that are a threat. They don't and never will have government backing.

 

You should of listened to the cats m8

 

I'm sure in a lot of cases it is parent induced, but that doesn't mean that it is the cause of their intelligence - for example it could come from the desire of parents to focus on nurturing the inherent gifts of their children. I've also been friends with many very smart Jewish kids who were by nature studious; they weren't very keen on going out to play football, and rather stayed indoors reading (okay, and also playing video games), but they studied a lot without particular pressure from their parents.

 

Yes but that's not intelligence, it's learning. Brain size has more to do with intelligence than ethnicity does.

 

If you had a kid who was incredibly intelligent but crap at football - do you think it would be better for their long term success in life if they refined their intellect or footballing ability (of course it would be good if they could do a bit of both, but just for the sake of the hypothesis, if you had to favour one)? Regardless of whether you decide to put any pressure on them or not.

What I'm getting at is that being intelligent in and of itself can lead people, or a culture, to place a higher value on studying as opposed to encouraging other activities. It is not necessarily that the Jewish disposition towards studying has developed their intellect, but it could also be that the Jewish intellect has developed their disposition towards studying. Or, it could also have been a long-term virtuous circle of both.

 

The saddest thing ever was watching him die as his infected heart broke apart, he'd been injecting crack based up with Jif lemon juice ... All that intelligence but zero common sense - what a tragic waste!

The poor sod was previously at Britain's then top computer college and actually taught them more than he ever got out of it.

 

I've had a close relative die of a heroin overdose - my common sense is also probably a bit sub-par, but I took from that experience that I will never touch anything which requires taking a needle to yourself.

 

A dangerous point of view and racist beyond belief - IMO this really needs to be discouraged.

 

Which part? Are all the fastest sprinters in the world Afro-Caribbean because their parents tell them to stay outside in the evenings and do their 'sprinting training' rather than stay inside and study?

 

Show me the science ... or better still, explain these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSoqfb56tpQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gUQFLQgUaY

 

I was covering my eyes when I saw Godfather had entered this thread and of course if was the expected fecking disaster!

 

Ah Jumbo's here to enlighten us